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js1975
9th April 2007, 04:58 PM
Ron,

I have never heard of body,spirit, and soul before, or at least in the way you taught it. It really fills a large void of my understanding of myself.

Would it be proper to relate the relationship of the Body and Spirit as the strength of the spirit? As I decide incorrectly towards sin, I weaken my spirit. When I decide properly, choosing God, my spirit strengthens. In this way my spirit is only strong when my soul and body are both working together?

Thanks,
jay

Ron Conte
9th April 2007, 05:09 PM
Ron,

I have never heard of body,spirit, and soul before, or at least in the way you taught it. It really fills a large void of my understanding of myself.

Would it be proper to relate the relationship of the Body and Spirit as the strength of the spirit? As I decide incorrectly towards sin, I weaken my spirit. When I decide properly, choosing God, my spirit strengthens. In this way my spirit is only strong when my soul and body are both working together?

Thanks,
jay

Yes, that sounds correct to me.

The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. The spirit can be weakened by indulgences of the flesh, and strengthened by disciplines of the flesh (fasting, self-denial).


Ron

Rob
9th April 2007, 07:57 PM
Congratulation Ron. The soul, spirit and body seems a more profound teaching. I think that it deepens our understanding of man and gives a more "personal touch" to individuals. This is a strong point against reincarnation beliefs, because it's both body and soul who give a "spirit", so that each human being is unique. Both body and soul are equally needed. I can appreciate each individual's uniqueness with the concept of spirit.

God bless

Roberto

Hope
10th April 2007, 12:57 PM
I've always been taught that the soul and spirit are distinct, but the difference has not exactly sunk in. So, is it the union of the soul and body, which generates what we call the spirit?

If I'm understanding this much correctly, then I have more questions.

At death then, when the soul leaves the body and the union is broken, what happens to the spirit?

Is the spirit dead until the resurrection of the body at the end of the world?

These last questions may or may not apply, depending on the answer to the first ones . . . but anyway . . .

How does the absense of a spirit (and a body for that matter) in heaven for souls whose bodies are dead affect their union with God? Will the experience of God deepen after the Final Judgment and Resurrection, when the the body and soul come together once again and the spirit is "reborn"?

Ron Conte
10th April 2007, 01:05 PM
I've always been taught that the soul and spirit are distinct, but the difference has not exactly sunk in. So, is it the union of the soul and body generate what we call the spirit?

If I'm understanding this much correctly, then I have more questions.

At death then, when the soul leaves the body, and the union is broken, what happens to the spirit?

Is the spirit dead until the resurrection of the body at the end of the world?

These last questions may or may not apply, depending on the answer to the first ones . . . but anyway . . .

How does the absense of a spirit (and a body for that matter) in heaven for those that are already dead affect their union with God? Will the experience of God deepen when the the body and soul are rejoined and the spirit "reborn"?

No, the union of body and soul does not generate the spirit. The spirit is nothing but the interaction and close cooperation of body and soul. It is not a separate thing. It is a concept, not a thing. So I think that answers your other questions.

Hope
10th April 2007, 01:18 PM
Not really. I'm back to square one. The spirit is just a concept--so are you saying that it doesn't really exist and is not a separate entity from the soul or body? The spirit is based on the interaction and cooperation of the body and soul, so does the spirit cease to be at death, when the two separate for a while? Or does the spirit continue on?

This isn't clicking for me.

Ron Conte
10th April 2007, 02:34 PM
Not really. I'm back to square one. The spirit is just a concept--so are you saying that it doesn't really exist and is not a separate entity from the soul or body? The spirit is based on the interaction and cooperation of the body and soul, so does the spirit cease to be at death, when the two separate for a while? Or does the spirit continue on?

This isn't clicking for me.

That's right, it does not exist as a separate entity from soul or body. It is based on the interaction between body and soul. So this ceases when body and soul are separated in death. No, the spirit cannot continue on, since body and soul are separated and spirit is the interaction and close cooperation between body and soul.

RJP2006
10th April 2007, 04:14 PM
this "spirit" is a divine person, not an obscure "interaction". It is is the Holy Spirit within us!

We are born with a body and a soul, traditionally understood as our reason (to think) and our will (to act.).

Baptism confers the gift of the person of the Holy Spirit in our souls. The Holy Spirit is not just the interaction of love between the Father and Son, but is the third person of the trinity.

RJP

Ron Conte
10th April 2007, 06:25 PM
this "spirit" is a divine person, not an obscure "interaction". It is is the Holy Spirit within us!

We are born with a body and a soul, traditionally understood as our reason (to think) and our will (to act.).

Baptism confers the gift of the person of the Holy Spirit in our souls. The Holy Spirit is not just the interaction of love between the Father and Son, but is the third person of the trinity.

RJP

Certainly you are right that the Spirit is with us.

But the Bible also uses the term spirit to refer to the human spirit, in ways that cannot be interpreted to refer to the Holy Spirit.

The OT says that when man dies, his spirit ceases to exist. This makes sense if one understands spirit as the breath of life, as the interaction of body and soul which ceases with death.

There are also clear NT references using spirit to refer to the human spirit, as well as to the Holy Spirit.

Climacus Areopagite
10th April 2007, 07:10 PM
This post might seem a little out there but it isnt theological, more philosophical. In my journey towards truth I have studied some of the eastern philosophical systems, and I have found some useful knowledge.

In almost every system they have a term for what I think is their term for the human spirit. In China it is qi, In India it is prana, and so on. They have systems designed to enhance the spirit through meditations and exercises. Of course this isnt a religion mere philosophy/human knowledge. Part of the reason the West has a suspicion and poor understanding of these concepts is that our philosophers focused on different ideas.

For about a year and a half I practiced these exercises called the tibetan rites. They are so simple and easy it is almost ridiculous. An idiot could do them. Anyway they are designed to enhance the life force or whatever term you use. In doing this they prevent the body from sickness, reverse aging, regulate appetite, help sleep patterns, among other things.

At the peak of my training (about 15 minutes a day) people at work said I looked about 10 years younger. My emotions were great and some people would look at me and say your eyes are sparkling. Not to mention I would fall into incredibly deep sleeps. Unfortunately I got out of the habit of doing them.

So my whole point is yes of course there is a spirit. It is in the Bible and the Bible is infallible. And yes other cultures have attempted to explain the spirit using their own terms and philosophical systems. In other words it is not a new idea.

What are your thoughts?


Nicholas

RJP2006
11th April 2007, 05:02 AM
between the body and soul is --- war. Conflict. Battle. Either we control our body's desires with the power of the HS, or, our body's desires controls us.

"The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak" in Matthew, Jesus seems to be describing the interaction as a conflict, between the will, and perhaps emotions of sadness, body being tired, etc.

It was also common in Jewish writing to refer to one concept with several names or adjectives. Yes, they were inspired by the HS, but did He mean to parse words or just convey a particular theme using several similar words?

For example, Psalm 143

"My spirit is faint within me;
my heart is dismayed."

It's poetic language, love language, so precise definitions don't fit. Spirit and heart are implied to be the exact same concept here.

Spirit is also rarer used than "soul" in the Psalms. Perhaps.... spirit implies how much vitality a soul has. Which would imply it's a description of the soul, i.e. - wether the person is acting in the holy spirit or not.

Come Holy Spirit, enlighten this limited mind (me).

Love The Fisherman
11th April 2007, 11:13 AM
Hi Ron,
Could You Explain The Difference Between A Soul In Hell And A Soul In Heaven From The Point Of View Of The Spirit. Surely The Soul In Hell Has Lost The Spirit Forever But The Soul In Heaven Has The Spirit Forever? Is This Spirit Not Our Very Life (Which Is Lost To The Damned)? We Are Members of His Mystical Body Because This Spirit Unites Us. Surely The Only Real Death Is The Loss Of This Spirit?

Ron Conte
11th April 2007, 11:54 AM
Hi Ron,
Could You Explain The Difference Between A Soul In Hell And A Soul In Heaven From The Point Of View Of The Spirit. Surely The Soul In Hell Has Lost The Spirit Forever But The Soul In Heaven Has The Spirit Forever? Is This Spirit Not Our Very Life (Which Is Lost To The Damned)? We Are Members of His Mystical Body Because This Spirit Unites Us. Surely The Only Real Death Is The Loss Of This Spirit?

The human spirit is not at all the same as the Holy Spirit.
The souls in Heaven have the Holy Spirit; the souls in Hell do not.

When the resurrection occurs, then the just and the unjust are given bodies befitting of their justice or injustice; when body and soul are united (and for the just, glorified) then the human person will again be soul, spirit, body. The glorified human person at that time is glorified in soul and in spirit and in body.

Hope
12th April 2007, 07:06 PM
Between everybody else's questions, I think that all of my questions have been addressed and answered. Thank you Ron and everybody :).

myLivingBread
12th March 2008, 08:27 AM
Ron,

On the link below, it says
http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/class2.htm

SPIRIT OF A PERSON:
1. Has intellect.
A. Knows, reasons, thinks, and has ideas.
2. Has free will. Will decides, using "Will" power and "Won't" power. With liberty comes responsibility, free choices and free will.

and on the chart it says: the spirit has the faculties of the intellect and freewill.

http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/flonatur.htm

Is that correct? what happens when a person dies? isn't it the spirit ceases to exist because the union of body and soul is the spirit? The link above is Roman Catholic a Basic theology study which I am reading.

VKallin
12th March 2008, 10:39 AM
This is a very interesting discussion of a poorly understood topic? Would the spirit of Christ be the same as the spirit of a mortal human. He had both a human nature and a divine nature. What was the significance of Christ's words from the cross when he said "Father....into your hands I commend my spirit"?

Ron Conte
12th March 2008, 01:36 PM
Ron,

On the link below, it says
http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/class2.htm

SPIRIT OF A PERSON:
1. Has intellect.
A. Knows, reasons, thinks, and has ideas.
2. Has free will. Will decides, using "Will" power and "Won't" power. With liberty comes responsibility, free choices and free will.

and on the chart it says: the spirit has the faculties of the intellect and freewill.

http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/flonatur.htm

Is that correct? what happens when a person dies? isn't it the spirit ceases to exist because the union of body and soul is the spirit? The link above is Roman Catholic a Basic theology study which I am reading.

I looked over that website.
There is some good material there, but also some serious errors.

He has misunderstood soul versus spirit.
Aquinas explains it well, but I can't find the reference right now.
When soul and body cooperate closely together, this is referred to as spirit.
So the human person is body and soul; spirit refers to the result of close cooperation between body and soul.

Ron Conte
12th March 2008, 01:37 PM
This is a very interesting discussion of a poorly understood topic? Would the spirit of Christ be the same as the spirit of a mortal human. He had both a human nature and a divine nature. What was the significance of Christ's words from the cross when he said "Father....into your hands I commend my spirit"?

That is a different use of the word spirit.
Jesus was referring to His human soul in that quote.

Rix
7th May 2008, 09:34 PM
I always understood it that the spirit is a characteristic of the soul which makes us unique amongst the other created things.

We have a body and a soul, but our soul is also a spirit which is why our souls are immortal.

Rix