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mariateresa
6th July 2007, 03:02 AM
Hi Ron and Forum Members:

In "Anne", lay apostle, book CLIMBING THE MOUNTAIN page 79 (description of heaven) reads as follows: "We went into the city and entered a house, down a hallway and to the left. It was a large room and I was aware of approximately 25 people sitting in a circle. A woman spoke and Jesus asked me to listen to her. She talked about the situation on earth and urged the others toward the recommendation of a certain course of action. A man presented a different perspective and they discussed the topic back and forth. Jesus listened carefully to all, as did the others. Jesus began to explain to me. These men and women are my closest advisors. They have great wisdom and concern themselves with the affairs of the Church on earth. They are aware of each detail as holiness ebbs and flows in the world. I listen carefully to their counsel because I trust them."

Now my question is the bible states in 1 Cor 2:16 "Who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?" Therefore, why would Jesus need advisors?

Lauren
6th July 2007, 03:23 AM
thank you for asking this question. i am currently reading the book also and thought the exact same thing. it's a wonderful book, but certain descriptions of Heaven (like the one you mentioned) made me a little weary, only for the fact that I've never heard those descriptions anywhere else...
I look forward to your thoughts Ron - I want to give the book to my friends to read, but am a little (like 15%) nervous that I shouldn't...

Lauren

Ron Conte
6th July 2007, 01:04 PM
The description is figurative. It is not literally true that people are sitting in a circle in a house discussing and giving advice. It is a way to explain that the elect in Heaven have a role in participating in what God does on earth. Jesus does not need advice, yet He does permit the elect to participate in what He does on earth by Providence and grace.

Some of the figures used in the Gospels are quite unusual, such as the faithful described as sheep or Jesus described as a gate. But we are so used to them that we don't notice the oddness of such a comparision. Heaven can use a wide range of figures to teach various truths. This is not an indicator of false private revelation.


Ron

Brother
6th July 2007, 01:32 PM
Wouldn't Mary and Joseph be the first Jesus' human "advisors" in the same sense it's written there?

Jesus doesn't know everything, the Father does and the Father teaches Jesus thus the Son obeys.

John {8:28} And so Jesus said to them: “When you will have lifted up the Son of man, then you shall realize that I am, and that I do nothing of myself, but just as the Father has taught me, so do I speak.

I think God could have used holy persons as Joseph or Mary to teach His Son through them for determinate things because that was their role given to them by God the Father.

Brother
6th July 2007, 01:37 PM
I also think that Jesus, as a human, experienced everything we humans experience, even learning. Jesus was not exempt from anything.

untamed_angel
6th July 2007, 01:53 PM
Ron

I just read Mariateres' post and I have got to say that the only heavenly counsel I would believe to advise Jesus would be the Father through his holy spirit. This isnt sitting right with me. Also because we will be full of Grace I believe when we get to heaven but like that the grace which will be from the Holy Spirit. It doesnt seem right that mortal's would need to advise the son of God.What is our heavenly Fathers place then?

This would also contradict Paul to Corinthians which we all had a discussion on because it is a woman talking to the group of mixed gender???

Not sure about this atall.

God bless
Eileen

untamed_angel
6th July 2007, 01:56 PM
ps...I agree on earth that Jesus would have been taught by St Joseph and Mary. I further agree with MariaTherese on the piece of scripture regarding man/woman wether they be on earth or in heaven....Who are we to advise the Lord?

Eileen

Ron Conte
6th July 2007, 03:13 PM
Jesus doesn't know everything, the Father does and the Father teaches Jesus thus the Son obeys.

In his human mind, Jesus does not know everything all at once.
When on earth, Jesus grew up and learned in the usual human way.
He also was taught in his human mind by his Divine Mind.
In his Divine Mind, Jesus does certainly know everything all at once.

The Son is the Father's knowledge of Himself personified, so He knows all that the Father knows in His Divinity. The Father, Son, Spirit share one and the same Divine Nature, so they each and all have the same knowledge.

Ron Conte
6th July 2007, 03:15 PM
I just read Mariateres' post and I have got to say that the only heavenly counsel I would believe to advise Jesus would be the Father through his holy spirit. This isnt sitting right with me. Also because we will be full of Grace I believe when we get to heaven but like that the grace which will be from the Holy Spirit. It doesnt seem right that mortal's would need to advise the son of God.What is our heavenly Fathers place then?

This would also contradict Paul to Corinthians which we all had a discussion on because it is a woman talking to the group of mixed gender???

The Church teaches that the Saints and all the Blessed in Heaven participate in our salvation by the communion of Saints. This can be figuratively (but not literally) described as advising Jesus.

The woman in the figure was in the circle, so she was not the leader of the group. Jesus was not in the circle, so He was the leader. If one person advises a second, the first is not the leader, the second is. So it is not a problem that the woman was talking.

If this particular figure does not speak to you, then it is dispensible; it is not a required belief as a figure.


Ron

DiAZ216
6th July 2007, 05:17 PM
Don't know if it will help, but this question was posed a while back -- here is the thread:
http://catholicplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=56&highlight=anne+darrell

A couple of thoughts: first whenever speaking of God and Heaven, we are using human words and these are really limited and inadequate, and this poses challenges.

"Since our knowledge of God is limited, our language about him is equally so."
--CCC 40

We know that God is perfect and complete in Himself; He doesn't need to use people at all, but He chooses to do so as part of His plan. It is a gift to us.

Darrell

Padraig
6th July 2007, 05:26 PM
I think at one point Saint Paul complains to the faithful for dragging each other through civil, secular courts. He reminds the faithful that this is necessary and a scandal because the faithful will, sit on judgement, even on the angels. If the saints are given the role of judges I would suppose they could be given the role of advisors???? I would suppose judging angels would be as much a high flown job as serving as an advisor.

1 Corinthians 6:1-8 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)


1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

4If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

5I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

6But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

7Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

8Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

mariateresa
17th July 2007, 03:52 AM
If you go to the Direction For Our Times website and download newsletter #4, and go to page 7, "Anne" responds to the question about God and advisors.

http://www.directionforourtimes.com/newsletter.html