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Pontifex
23rd July 2008, 04:00 AM
Ron, in your writings about the future you discuss how the Transfiguration, witnessed by Peter, James and John foreshadows the office of Pope in the case of Peter; while James and John foreshadow new offices, apart from and beyond the authority of other Bishops and Cardinals, but below and under the authority of the Pope once the Orthodox and Protestant Churchs repent and reunite with the Catholic Church (2020's).

Can you expand on what these roles might be ? Perhaps they will ressemble somewhat to the early relationship between the Pope and the Patriarchs of Constantinople and Jerusalem ? For example, in 381, the First Council of Constantinople declared that "The Bishop of Constantinople shall have the primacy of honour after the Bishop of Rome, because it is the New Rome" (canon 3).

Ron Conte
23rd July 2008, 12:37 PM
I think that once the Protestant and Orthodox Churches unite with the Catholic Church, there will be two roles (perhaps Patriarchs) that are above the role of Cardinal and below the role of Pope, symbolized by James and John versus Peter. I think that there will be one role over the East, perhaps the Patriarch of Constantinople, and one role over the formerly Protestant branches of the Catholic Church.

The Warning is the beginning of the movement to unification, though this might not be clear to all at the time. That is why James and John are present at the transfiguration, as a figure of the approaching unity and the two roles that result from it.

Pontifex
23rd July 2008, 01:36 PM
I think that once the Protestant and Orthodox Churches unite with the Catholic Church, there will be two roles (perhaps Patriarchs) that are above the role of Cardinal and below the role of Pope, symbolized by James and John versus Peter. I think that there will be one role over the East, perhaps the Patriarch of Constantinople, and one role over the formerly Protestant branches of the Catholic Church.

The Warning is the beginning of the movement to unification, though this might not be clear to all at the time. That is why James and John are present at the transfiguration, as a figure of the approaching unity and the two roles that result from it.

I also think a Patriarchate could be the rigth fit. The Catholic encyclopedia defines Greek patriarcheia; Latin patriarchatus as the derived word meaning a patriarch's office, see, reign, or, most often, the territory he governs. It corresponds to episcopacy, episcopate, and diocese in relation to a bishop.

Rob
23rd July 2008, 01:58 PM
http://www.umilta.net/jubileedoor.jpg

Perhaps the patriarch of the east will have his see in Jerusalem rather than Constantinople, since from what we discussed previously, the orthodox church will have a prominent role as custodian of the holy places.

Ron Conte
23rd July 2008, 02:58 PM
Perhaps the patriarch of the east will have his see in Jerusalem rather than Constantinople, since from what we discussed previously, the orthodox church will have a prominent role as custodian of the holy places.

Constantinople will be occupied during World War 3, and during the inter-war period, so it may be that the Patriach will move his see to Jerusalem, which will not be occupied.

Pontifex
23rd July 2008, 03:25 PM
Ron, according to your judgement, the following verses, as well as the whole chapter, apply to the Church. Will this happen during the tribulation or is it reserved for the time of Antichrist's reign ?

Zechariah

{11:16} For behold, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, who will not visit what is forsaken, nor seek what is scattered, nor heal what is broken, nor nourish what remains standing, and he will consume the flesh of the fatted ones and break their hoofs.

{11:17} O shepherd and idol, abandoning the flock, with a sword upon his arm and over his right eye: his arm will be withered by drought, and his right eye will be obscured by darkness.

Ron Conte
23rd July 2008, 03:50 PM
Ron, according to your judgement, the following verses, as well as the whole chapter, apply to the Church. Will this happen during the tribulation or is it reserved for the time of Antichrist's reign ?

Zechariah

{11:16} For behold, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, who will not visit what is forsaken, nor seek what is scattered, nor heal what is broken, nor nourish what remains standing, and he will consume the flesh of the fatted ones and break their hoofs.

{11:17} O shepherd and idol, abandoning the flock, with a sword upon his arm and over his right eye: his arm will be withered by drought, and his right eye will be obscured by darkness.

I think it refers to the Antichrist and the false prophetess; she is an antipope and therefore a type of 'sheherd', and he is an idol, wanting to be worshipped.

The first part of the tribulation is a foreshadowing of the second part, so the two leaders of the Arab/Muslim nations may fit this passage to a limited extent.

Rob
23rd July 2008, 06:48 PM
Constantinople will be occupied during World War 3, and during the inter-war period, so it may be that the Patriach will move his see to Jerusalem, which will not be occupied.

I was referring mainly to the time period after the tribulation, but I see that this eventual move to Jerusalem could work even during the occupation. After all James was bishop of Jerusalem and he foreshadows one of the three pillars and one of the two patriarchs:

Galatians
{2:9} And so, when they had acknowledged the grace that was given to me, James and Cephas and John, who seemed like pillars, gave to me and to Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we would go to the Gentiles, while they went to the circumcised,

Ron Conte
23rd July 2008, 07:10 PM
Yes, James remained in Jerusalem as its Bishop during the early persecution of the Church, which caused even Peter to flee the area. But that was James the lesser, not the brother of John.

Rob
23rd July 2008, 08:07 PM
True Ron, but wasn't James the Great already killed as martyr by kind Herod? So I suppose the role given originally to James the Great passed to James the Less, bishop of Jerusalem, hence the reason why Paul includes him as one of the three pillars.

Pontifex
1st February 2009, 02:19 PM
In looking at the Fouth Lateran Council (1215), I found this interesting constitution which seems to depict an order in the different churches with Rome having primacy.

5. The dignity of the patriarchal sees

Renewing the ancient privileges of the patriarchal sees, we decree, with the approval of this sacred universal synod, that after the Roman church, which through the Lord's disposition has a primacy of ordinary power over all other churches inasmuch as it is the mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful, the church of Constantinople shall have the first place, the church of Alexandria the second place, the church of Antioch the third place, and the church of Jerusalem the fourth place, each maintaining its own rank. Thus after their pontiffs have received from the Roman pontiff the pallium, which is the sign of the fullness of the pontifical office, and have taken an oath of fidelity and obedience to him they may lawfully confer the pallium on their own suffragans, receiving from them for themselves canonical profession and for the Roman church the promise of obedience. They may have a standard of the Lord's cross carried before them anywhere except in the city of Rome or wherever there is present the supreme pontiff or his legate wearing the insignia of the apostolic dignity. In all the provinces subject to their jurisdiction let appeal be made to them, when it is necessary, except for appeals made to the apostolic see, to which all must humbly defer.

http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum12.htm#CONSTITUTIONS

Ron Conte
1st February 2009, 03:00 PM
A number of Councils have affirmed that there is an order of honor (but not authority) after the See of Rome. This does not imply a hierarchy of authority in the Sees, other than that the See of Rome is over all other Sees.