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-   -   Is lying always wrong? (http://www.catholicplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4130)

Ron Conte 17th April 2010 12:29 PM

Is lying always wrong?
 
Is lying….?

A. always immoral
B. always gravely immoral
C. moral or immoral depending on the intention and circumstances

sammy 17th April 2010 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Conte (Post 32325)
Is lying….?

A. always immoral
B. always gravely immoral
C. moral or immoral depending on the intention and circumstances


A. Yes. Lying is intrinsically evil and always immoral.
B. No. The gravity depends on the intention and consequences. Lying can be venial sin or mortal sin.
C. The morality of lying is defined by the second font or moral object or species of the act and independent of the intention and circumstances.

zouxi 17th April 2010 06:44 PM

Always immoral.

Shane 17th April 2010 10:03 PM

Intrinsically evil and always immoral.

The gravity depends on the nature of the lie itself.

CB 17th April 2010 11:40 PM

I would like to ask a question.
To whom do we owe the truth? For instance, if the Fuller Brush man comes to my door, ( I know I'm dating myself here ), and I tell my kid to inform him that mommy is not available, when in fact, I am, is this an immoral act? Do I owe this man my time and am I obligated to listen to his sales pitch so as to avoid a lie?
In other words, am I to engage in conversation with this man just because he wants me to? Or, do I act rudely, and tell him that he is not welcome at my doorstep selling his products?

Arax 17th April 2010 11:58 PM

It isn't a lie to say that you aren't available, because you are not available to see him. It would be a lie to say that you aren't home when you are.

Rob 18th April 2010 12:01 AM

A. Lying is intrinsically evil and always immoral.

B. If by gravely immoral we intend intrinsically evil, then yes it is a gravely immoral act, because in the act of lying there is total absence of good. However lying might not always be a mortal sin if there is not full and deliberate knowledge, or if the person is unaware that is an actual mortal sin, invincible ignorance, for example.

C. Lying always remains a sin regardless of intention or cirsumstance, and so always immoral. However intention or cirsumstance might lessen the gravity or the act from an actual mortal sin to a venial sin.

Ron Conte 18th April 2010 12:55 AM

There is a certain approach to the question of whether lying is always wrong, which is to base the morality of lying on whether or not the other person is owed the truth. In this approach, if someone is doing evil, then it is claimed that telling falsehoods to that person is not a type of lying. But this approach is contrary to the teaching of the Church on intrinsic evil.

Lying has an evil moral object, because God is truth. And so lying is inherently immoral. Like all intrinsically evil acts, lying is defined by its moral object, not by intention and circumstances.

The intention to avoid harm, whether harming someone's feelings or grave harm to the innocent, never justifies any intrinsically evil act.

The circumstance that harm might result if one does not lie cannot change the moral object. Lying remains immoral; it is always at least a venial sin.

Any approach which defines lying based on the intention or the circumstances has the effect of nullifying the teaching of the Church that intrinsically evil acts are independent of intention or circumstances.

Ron Conte 18th April 2010 12:55 AM

Pope John Paul II: "Consequently, circumstances or intentions can never transform an act, intrinsically evil by virtue of its object, into an act 'subjectively' good or defensible as a choice."

Pope John Paul II: "No circumstance, no purpose, no law whatsoever can ever make licit an act which is intrinsically illicit, since it is contrary to the Law of God which is written in every human heart, knowable by reason itself, and proclaimed by the Church."

The Catechism of the Catholic Church: "It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it."

Ron Conte 18th April 2010 01:02 AM

Quote:

B. If by gravely immoral we intend intrinsically evil, then yes it is a gravely immoral act, because in the act of lying there is total absence of good. However lying might not always be a mortal sin if there is not full and deliberate knowledge, or if the person is unaware that is an actual mortal sin, invincible ignorance, for example.
The term gravely immoral refers only to mortal sins. Lying is not inherently a grave sin because turning away from truth to tell a single lie does not necessarily constitute a complete rejection of the love of God and neighbor.

Any sin at all has no good in what is sinful; sin is a privation of moral goodness. But not all sins are gravely immoral.

When an act is gravely immoral, that act is an objective mortal sin; if the same act is done with full knowledge and full deliberation, then it is an actual mortal sin. Only unrepentant actual mortal sin condemns the soul to Hell.

Quote:

C. Lying always remains a sin regardless of intention or cirsumstance, and so always immoral. However intention or cirsumstance might lessen the gravity or the act from an actual mortal sin to a venial sin.
When an act is objectively gravely immoral due to any one font of morality (bad intention, or bad moral object, or the bad consequences gravely outweigh the good consequences), then the other two fonts cannot make the act less than an objective mortal sin. The other two fonts can make the act a more serious mortal sin or a less serious mortal sin, but they cannot lessen it from mortal to venial because the one font remains gravely disordered.


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