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-   -   TS 6: original sin, freewill, and grace (http://www.catholicplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1156)

Ron Conte 7th May 2007 11:53 AM

TS 6: original sin, freewill, and grace
 
Adam and Eve were created by God in a state of original innocence.
They had sanctifying grace from the first moment of their creation.
They had no concupiscence (tendency toward sin).
They could not be mistaken in anything that they knew, for their
minds and hearts were unclouded by sin.
They lived in Paradise.

Adam and Eve fell from grace by an actual mortal sin, a sin which
they each fully realized was a serious offense against God and which
they each deliberately chose to commit.

By this sin, they lost sanctifying grace, and they were removed from
Paradise by God. Their descendents had no sactifying grace from conception,
and so they (we) must obtain sanctifying grace by Baptism. Their
descendants also have concupiscence, which is a tendency toward sin
due to our fallen human nature.

Human nature is fallen in that we are conceived without sanctifying grace in our souls,
and in that our bodies are not entirely obedient to, and in harmony with, our souls.

Joan 7th May 2007 01:33 PM

Implications
 
What are the implications of this condition? For example, we all experience the phenomenon that "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." However, other implications are hinted at in Scripture, as in the passage regarding why humanity is never free from the scourge of war: "they are at war within their own members" is the explanation.

Brother 7th May 2007 02:08 PM

Would a person who has been baptized (with sactifying grace) believe in Jesus as the true Messiah more easily than a person who has not been baptized (without sactifying grace)?

Would be correct to think that a person who has been baptized would be like having a seed of faith inside which just needs water to grow and a person who has not been baptized would need more work in order to accept this seed since has not sactifying grace and our natural tendency to sin?

Ron Conte 7th May 2007 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan (Post 8407)
What are the implications of this condition? For example, we all experience the phenomenon that "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." However, other implications are hinted at in Scripture, as in the passage regarding why humanity is never free from the scourge of war: "they are at war within their own members" is the explanation.


see my answer in the other thread.

Yes, sin and suffering resulted from the inheritance of the consequences of the Fall from grace.

Another consequence is that the will is weakened and the intellect is obscured, so that people think
that they have found truth when they have not. (This will be covered as we continue to examine the
Canons of Orange).

Climacus Areopagite 7th May 2007 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Conte (Post 8413)
see my answer in the other thread.

Yes, sin and suffering resulted from the inheritance of the consequences of the Fall from grace.

Another consequence is that the will is weakened and the intellect is obscured, so that people think
that they have found truth when they have not. (This will be covered as we continue to examine the
Canons of Orange).


Oh Felix Culpum. What do you think of the whole Felix Culpum idea Ron as expressed in the Exsultet???

Ron Conte 7th May 2007 05:45 PM

Oh happy fault of Adam, which gave us so great a Savior.

mankind responded with sin to God's gift of the creation of humanity,
to which God responded with the even greater gift of Himself incarnate.

Joey 7th May 2007 08:16 PM

Ron,
I notice that your wording does not include "original sin", and instead it stresses the loss of sanctifying grace. That puts it into a much better perspective. I always have a heck of a time explaining that we are born with the stain of sin as a completely innocent infant.

Ron Conte 7th May 2007 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey (Post 8437)
Ron,
I notice that your wording does not include "original sin", and instead it stresses the loss of sanctifying grace. That puts it into a much better perspective. I always have a heck of a time explaining that we are born with the stain of sin as a completely innocent infant.


The sin of Adam and Eve consisted of three things:
1. their personal choice to sin
2. the loss of sanctifying grace in the soul
3. the fallen state of our bodies (concupiscence, or tendency toward sin)

An infant is not completely innocent, because they bear the wounds of
the serious of Adam and Eve, in that they lack sanctifying grace (which
is remedied by Baptism) and they have a tendency toward sin.

I did use the term original sin, in the title of the post.

DiAZ216 7th May 2007 09:19 PM

The Catechism puts it that we have "disordered apetites which are the consequences of original sin."

Adam and Eve weren't alone in their sin -- they of course were tricked by the serpent. In the same way, Satan is tricking many inthe world today with the lies of a materialistic, secular, individualistic and selfish, self-serving world.

Interesting the timing that you started this thread Ron. I was contemplating on these things the last three days, and I just posted my thoughts on my blog:

http://darrellbowles-climbingthemountain.blogspot.com/

Darrell

Justin Angel 11th May 2007 07:20 AM

Absolved Mortal Sins & Purgatory
 
Ron, must we still spend some time in Purgatory for the mortal sins we have committed,
but that have been absolved by a priest in the confessional? :roll:

Love The Fisherman 11th May 2007 09:35 AM

Hi Ron,
I am a little curious about the Paradise in which God placed Adam. He was endowed with all the wonderful attributed you described but he was not satisfied. Why? Why was the contemplation and friendship of God not sufficient for him? It was only when God created Eve that Adam declared himself content. This has always puzzled me. I tend to equate this Paradise with Heaven. This is obviously not so.

Ron Conte 11th May 2007 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Angel (Post 8617)
Ron, must we still spend some time in Purgatory for the mortal sins we have committed,
but that have been absolved by a priest in the confessional?


Only if you have not found remission for the temporal punishment due for those sins. One can obtain such remission through prayer, self-denial, works of mercy, or indulgences, or the feast of Divine Mercy.


Ron

Ron Conte 11th May 2007 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Love The Fisherman (Post 8618)
Hi Ron,
I am a little curious about the Paradise in which God placed Adam. He was endowed with all the wonderful attributed you described but he was not satisfied. Why? Why was the contemplation and friendship of God not sufficient for him? It was only when God created Eve that Adam declared himself content. This has always puzzled me. I tend to equate this Paradise with Heaven. This is obviously not so.


Paradise is not Heaven.
Adam did not have the Beatific Vision of God, so he was not satisfied.
Having a wife was fitting and right for him, because human beings are
not only like angels, but are also like animals.

When Adam and Eve sinned, they became more like the animals and
less like the angels.

garabandalg 12th May 2007 06:30 AM

Ron, what about fallen angels?
 
Ron, in your writings you mention that many false private revelations may involve fallen angels. Who exactly are such angels and how have they become "fallen"? Are they stuck on earth and why do they deceive as they do? Do they do this for kicks, out of envy or resentment, or what?

Are such angels involved in cases involving ouija boards etc. I am curious.

Ron Conte 12th May 2007 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garabandalg (Post 8643)
Ron, in your writings you mention that many false private revelations may involve fallen angels. Who exactly are such angels and how have they become "fallen"? Are they stuck on earth and why do they deceive as they do? Do they do this for kicks, out of envy or resentment, or what?

Are such angels involved in cases involving ouija boards etc. I am curious.

This article explains the answer to several of your questions:
http://www.catholicplanet.com/appari...evelations.htm

They act out of malice and anger and frustration and envy and resentment and all that is evil. They have no good in them at all.

A human being who is in a state of mortal sin might still respond to grace to some limited extent. But fallen angels are entirely without grace and faith.

They are stuck in Time and cannot know the future. They are unable to enter into Heaven, for they are excluded from the Beatific Vision, which the holy angels have.

myLivingBread 25th May 2007 04:55 AM

TS 6 Original sin
 
Because of original sin, God's love was no longer as visible as before.
This in turn made it more difficult for man to respond to God's call.

The first man who perceived God's call and love again, though faintly,
was Abraham.He responded to it with faith and confidence.

And God's Word made Flesh and dwells among us. Jesus was not only
Word of God, he was also the perfect human answer.His life of total
obedience to God was the perfect human answer. Thus, he reconciled man with God.

And so thru Baptism we became a New People in Christ.

I will make an eternal covenant with them by which I shall never cease to do them good and I shall place my fear in their heart so that they may never turn away from me. (Jer 32:40)

garabandalg 25th May 2007 02:21 PM

Sin as a gap between soul and body/animals and humans
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Conte (Post 8626)
Paradise is not Heaven.
Adam did not have the Beatific Vision of God, so he was not satisfied.
Having a wife was fitting and right for him, because human beings are
not only like angels, but are also like animals.

When Adam and Eve sinned, they became more like the animals and
less like the angels.


Ron, is it fair to say, then, that sin is the gap between our soul and our physical body in that the less sinful and more holy we are, the more aligned and consistent our body will be with our soul's ultimate purpose of being with God? Also, while animals cannot sin as they have no intellect and cannot make rational decisions, is not sin also the closing of that gap between irrational animals and rational humans such that we tend to sin when we act as animals do despite having the rational nature they are incapable of?

Ron Conte 25th May 2007 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garabandalg (Post 9067)
Ron, is it fair to say, then, that sin is the gap between our soul and our physical body in that the less sinful and more holy we are, the more aligned and consistent our body will be with our soul's ultimate purpose of being with God? Also, while animals cannot sin as they have no intellect and cannot make rational decisions, is not sin also the closing of that gap between irrational animals and rational humans such that we tend to sin when we act as animals do despite having the rational nature they are incapable of?


Sin is not a gap between body and soul.
Sin is a knowing choice of wrong over right.

Sin results in the body being less under the reign of the soul, but that is an effect of sin, not sin itself.

Padraig 25th May 2007 05:14 PM

So I wonder Ron, if sin not a thing as such but a nothing, if you see what I mean? not a presence but an absence?

Ron Conte 25th May 2007 06:02 PM

Figuratively, one can say that sin is an absence.

But literally speaking, sin is an act of the will and intellect.
When one knowingly chooses to do what is wrong, then one sins.

We can speak figuratively and somewhat poetically about sin,
using various comparisions and figures of speech, still, such
things are not the defintions of sin, but are merely a commentary
about sin.

themilitantcatholic 26th May 2007 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan (Post 8407)
as in the passage regarding why humanity is never free from the scourge of war: "they are at war within their own members" is the explanation.


Ron, Besides man's own free will, are the fallen angels also responsible for the fall of Adam?

If the angels in heaven did not fall away from God, then man would not have been tempted?

Angels are spirits, how did they take part in battle, when the fallen angels were cast from heaven?

Since the fallen angels are spirit beings, by being cast from heaven, do they now wage battle against God here on earth, by having man in physical bodies commit sin and "war within their own members."?

Ron Conte 26th May 2007 05:54 PM

Besides man's own free will, are the fallen angels also responsible for the fall of Adam?

Adam and Eve were entirely pure and holy, prior to the Fall. So they could not be tempted or tricked by fallen angels, except by their own fully deliberate sin. I don't know if we should say that the fallen angels were also responsible.

If the angels in heaven did not fall away from God, then man would not have been tempted?

Yes, man would not have been tempted. But Adam and Eve might still have sinned, because they had free will and they did not have the Beatific Vision. Just as, in the beginning, the angels sinned without temptation, so also man could have sinned without being tempted. But as to whether or not Adam and Eve would have sinned without temptation, I do not know.

Angels are spirits, how did they take part in battle, when the fallen angels were cast from heaven?

I don't know.

Since the fallen angels are spirit beings, by being cast from heaven, do they now wage battle against God here on earth, by having man in physical bodies commit sin and "war within their own members."?

The war within our members refers to the effect of original sin called concupiscence (a tendency toward sin by fallen mankind). Not all sin is of the devils. There are three influences on us toward sin: the flesh (i.e. original sin), the world (sinful society and the people around us), and the fallen angels. In that order.

Yes, fallen angels do try to cause people to sin and try to harm God's plan here on earth, out of hatred and spite and anger etc.

Climacus Areopagite 27th May 2007 03:47 PM

I have noticed a tendency among pious Catholics. When something goes wrong or when there is an evil deed, etc. They tend to blame it on fallen angels. I think this is too short sighted. Especially when we know that they are stuck in hell. They are bound by natural creation in a non-physical realm. There power is very limited.

Climacus Areopagite 27th May 2007 03:51 PM

Now I just remebered a story. One of the times Blessed Mary appeared to St. Bernadette the fallen angels were permitted to make a loud raucous which was distracting Bernadette. Blessed Mary simply turned her face in there direction and they were immediately silenced.

Ron Conte 27th May 2007 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Climacus Areopagite (Post 9101)
I have noticed a tendency among pious Catholics. When something goes wrong or when there is an evil deed, etc. They tend to blame it on fallen angels. I think this is too short sighted. Especially when we know that they are stuck in hell. They are bound by natural creation in a non-physical realm. There power is very limited.


You are right, except that many of the fallen angels are not yet in Hell.

Climacus Areopagite 27th May 2007 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Conte (Post 9108)
You are right, except that many of the fallen angels are not yet in Hell.


Interesting. So where are they? Maybe still in the non-physical realms God created for the angels before they were tested? Does God permit them to stay there and not enter Hell in order for them to do harm on earth where He wills to permit it? Do you have any quotes from Scripture I would be interested.

Ron Conte 27th May 2007 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Climacus Areopagite (Post 9109)
Interesting. So where are they? Maybe still in the non-physical realms God created for the angels before they were tested? Does God permit them to stay there and not enter Hell in order for them to do harm on earth where He wills to permit it? Do you have any quotes from Scripture I would be interested.


They are on earth, stuck in time, unable to reach to the true Heaven or the Beatific Vision therein. They are permited to tempt us in accord with the limits of God's will.

{25:41} Then he shall also say, to those who will be on his left: 'Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.'

Notice that Hell was prepared for them, implying that they were not immediately sent there.

{1:13} And he was in the desert for forty days and forty nights. And he was tempted by Satan. And he was with the wild animals, and the Angels ministered to him.

Notice that Satan is not in Hell at this point in time.

{8:16} And when evening arrived, they brought to him many who had demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word. And he healed all those having maladies,

Notice that the demons are on earth, not in Hell.

{5:7} And crying out with a loud voice, he said: “What am I to you, Jesus, the Son of the Most High God? I beseech you by God, that you not torment me.”
{5:8} For he said to him, “Depart from the man, you unclean spirit.”
{5:9} And he questioned him: “What is your name?” And he said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”
{5:10} And he entreated him greatly, so that he would not expel him from the region.
{5:11} And in that place, near the mountain, there was a great herd of swine, feeding.
{5:12} And the spirits entreated him, saying: “Send us into the swine, so that we may enter into them.”
{5:13} And Jesus promptly gave them permission. And the unclean spirits, departing, entered into the swine. And the herd of about two thousand rushed down with great force into the sea, and they were drowned in the sea.

{20:2} And he apprehended the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and he bound him for a thousand years.
{20:3} And he cast him into the abyss, and he closed and sealed it, so that he would no longer seduce the nations, until the thousand years are completed. And after these things, he must be released for a brief time.

Notice that this passage refers to the distant future. Therefore, currently, Satan is not bound and is not in the abyss.

Climacus Areopagite 27th May 2007 10:19 PM

very nice Ron thank you. I will look close at these.

CRW 28th May 2007 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Conte (Post 9112)
{20:3} And he cast him into the abyss, and he closed and sealed it, so that he would no longer seduce the nations, until the thousand years are completed. And after these things, he must be released for a brief time.


Ron,

Other then God’s will and order of things, is there speculation on why the devil must be released for a brief time?

Cecil

themilitantcatholic 28th May 2007 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Conte (Post 9112)
They are on earth, stuck in time, unable to reach to the true Heaven or the Beatific Vision therein. They are permited to tempt us in accord with the limits of God's will.


Ron, I have a theory that since no one really knows how spirit beings do battle, my theory is that the battle between spiritual beings - good vs evil; is waged in the physical world here on earth, this is the battleground. The fallen angels cannot harm God Himself, but they can do harm to God's Creation and lead people to perdition. "They are on earth, stuck in time . . ." which leads me to believe thats how they battle God, through us physical beings, by tempting us, making us turn away from God. This is merely a theory that I have, maybe this is more for Speculative Theology. Also, since the spiritual world is unseen by us humans, maybe there is also a battle waged between spirit beings in another dimension outside our physical realm. Some of the things I've often contemplated.

myLivingBread 28th May 2007 07:25 AM

flagellants
 
Is it a sin for a person who whips himself for religious belief or for penance?

This has become traditional practice only in our province every Holy week,
They even let themselves be crucified on Good Friday.
while the other faithful celebrate the Holy Week , singing the passion of Christ
without ceasing from Holy Monday to Good Friday.
The church try to stop this tradition but to no avail. It was handed from generation to generation.

I ask one the crucified penitent, why do they do it.

He said " So that the World would remember that there is a Lord who was
crucified because of our sin."

Ron Conte 28th May 2007 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRW (Post 9121)
Ron,

Other then God’s will and order of things, is there speculation on why the devil must be released for a brief time?

Cecil


I don't know. Perhaps it is to test the people of that time. They will have lived in a world of great faith and holiness and knowledge of God. And yet some of them will nevertheless have rejected what is good to choose evil.

Ron Conte 28th May 2007 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myLivingBread (Post 9126)
Is it a sin for a person who whips himself for religious belief or for penance?

This has become traditional practice only in our province every Holy week,
They even let themselves be crucified on Good Friday.
while the other faithful celebrate the Holy Week , singing the passion of Christ
without ceasing from Holy Monday to Good Friday.
The church try to stop this tradition but to no avail. It was handed from generation to generation.

I ask one the crucified penitent, why do they do it.

He said " So that the World would remember that there is a Lord who was
crucified because of our sin."


It is a sin for these persons to crucify themselves. They are mistakenly believing that external pain is sufficient to obtain grace. The bad thief who was crucified next to Jesus still went to Hell. So even being crucified next to Jesus will not save a person if they do not have faith and love and hope in their hearts.

It seems to me that excessive focus on externals rather than internals is harmful to our path to salvation.

myLivingBread 28th May 2007 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Conte (Post 9133)
It is a sin for these persons to crucify themselves. They are mistakenly believing that external pain is sufficient to obtain grace. The bad thief who was crucified next to Jesus still went to Hell. So even being crucified next to Jesus will not save a person if they do not have faith and love and hope in their hearts.

It seems to me that excessive focus on externals rather than internals is harmful to our path to salvation.


I agree with you Ron,I think it is better for them to try the Stations of the Cross share with suffering of Christ thru meditations and prayers. Also they lack knowledge about Catholic teachings.

myLivingBread 29th May 2007 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Justin Angel View Post
Ron, must we still spend some time in Purgatory for the mortal sins we have committed,
but that have been absolved by a priest in the confessional?

Only if you have not found remission for the temporal punishment due for those sins. One can obtain such remission through prayer, self-denial, works of mercy, or indulgences, or the feast of Divine Mercy.

Ron,

Do people who commits objective mortal sin but not actual mortal sin, must pass
through purgatory, to receive sanctifying grace?
Can they go straight to Heaven?

Ron Conte 29th May 2007 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myLivingBread (Post 9178)
Do people who commits objective mortal sin but not actual mortal sin, must pass
through purgatory, to receive sanctifying grace?
Can they go straight to Heaven?


When someone commits an objective mortal sin, but not an actual mortal sin, they do not lose sanctifying grace.

There is still some actual venial sin, even in an objective mortal sin which is not an actual mortal sin. So, again, one goes to Purgatory only if one has not atoned for the punishment due by means of prayer, self-denial, works of mercy, indulgences, etc.

It is possible for anyone who dies in a state of grace and who has atoned for their sins to go straight to heaven, especially if they are very contrite and atone for the punishment due by the devout reception of the Sacraments at the hour of death.


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