CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group

CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group (http://www.catholicplanet.net/forum/index.php)
-   Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium (http://www.catholicplanet.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=9)
-   -   Question about Liturgy (http://www.catholicplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5680)

St. Thomas More 12th December 2013 04:50 PM

Question about Liturgy
 
Where does Liturgy come from? If it comes from the Church, does it come from Tradition, Scripture, or the Magisterium?

I know that much of the liturgy emanates from Scripture, but it liturgical scripture is somewhat different, from my understand, and someone has to decide to implement/change liturgy.

Does it come from the Magisterium? That doesn't seem to fit, because it's not a "teaching."

Does it come from Tradition? Or Sacred Tradition?

What part of the "Church" does liturgy come from?

Ron Conte 12th December 2013 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by St. Thomas More (Post 42960)
Where does Liturgy come from? If it comes from the Church, does it come from Tradition, Scripture, or the Magisterium?

I know that much of the liturgy emanates from Scripture, but it liturgical scripture is somewhat different, from my understand, and someone has to decide to implement/change liturgy.

Does it come from the Magisterium? That doesn't seem to fit, because it's not a "teaching."

Does it come from Tradition? Or Sacred Tradition?

What part of the "Church" does liturgy come from?


According to Unam Sanctam, the Church has two types of authority:
1. the spiritual authority, also called the Magisterium, which issues teachings (doctrines)
2. the temporal authority, which issues judgments of the prudential order: rules, rulings, and all that pertains to discipline

Certain doctrines pertain to the Mass and other liturgical services, such as what constitutes a valid consecration of the Eucharist, or valid ordination of a priest.

However, most points of liturgical form are discipline, not doctrine. Doctrines are teachings of truth on faith, morals, and salvation. Disciplines are practical aspects of religious worship, and so these are changeable. The Church has authority over both doctrine and discipline.

The Old Covenant had both doctrines and disciplines, both given by Divine Revelation. Yet the Council of Florence taught that all the Old Covenant disciplines have been dispensed by Christ. In their place, the Church establishes and changes from time to time the New Covenant disciplines.

The basis of Church authority to issue decisions on discipline is found in the New Testament, as when Paul gives instructions on the Mass to certain Churches. But it also goes back to the Old Testament, when the worship of God was given a particular form in rituals and practices of the Jews. That is the starting point of liturgical form for the Church.

And this conclusion is confirmed by the example of Christ at the first Mass. He held the first Mass (and the first example of liturgical form for the Mass) as a form of the Passover supper. Yet no subsequent Mass (as far as we know) had that same form. So Christ established the liturgical form of the New Covenant, based on the liturgical forms in the Old Covenant. And yet He also gave the Church authority to change those forms.

Christ established the Mass, but not with immutable specifics.

Ron Conte 12th December 2013 07:13 PM

On the question of Tradition and liturgical form, Tradition and Scripture establish the need for liturgical form and the authority of the Church over liturgical form. But no particular point of liturgical form is per se of Tradition or of Scripture. Anything that is of liturgical form (discipline, not doctrine) is changeable; it is not an infallible and irreformable teaching.

St. Thomas More 13th December 2013 04:30 PM

Liturgy
 
My understanding is that, before the Council of Trent, liturgy only changed organically - small changes from various quarters that would be incorporated into the Mass.

After that Council, the "tradition" changed (so to speak), and all revisions to liturgy had to go through the Vatican. That continues to date.

Then, in Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilium spelled out the conditions for liturgical reform (which included the fact that changes should grow "organically" from rites already in use) and that the new liturgy should meet the circumstances of modern man (and sacred chant should be given pride of place!).

The initial product from Vatican II was the 1965 Missal, which is kind of in between the Traditional Latin Mass and the later product - the 1970 Novus Ordo.

Does this sound correct?

Ron Conte 13th December 2013 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by St. Thomas More (Post 42963)
My understanding is that, before the Council of Trent, liturgy only changed organically - small changes from various quarters that would be incorporated into the Mass.

After that Council, the "tradition" changed (so to speak), and all revisions to liturgy had to go through the Vatican. That continues to date.

Then, in Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilium spelled out the conditions for liturgical reform (which included the fact that changes should grow "organically" from rites already in use) and that the new liturgy should meet the circumstances of modern man (and sacred chant should be given pride of place!).

The initial product from Vatican II was the 1965 Missal, which is kind of in between the Traditional Latin Mass and the later product - the 1970 Novus Ordo.

Does this sound correct?


No, I don't agree. There has been no change in the authority of the Church over liturgical form over time. The first Council of the Church (at Nicea) decided a point of liturgical form (Canon XX)

"In so far as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord's Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, so that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere, it pleases the holy Council that prayer be made to the Lord while standing."

The Popes, Councils, and Bishops have always exercised authority over liturgical form.

"After that Council, the 'tradition' changed (so to speak), and all revisions to liturgy had to go through the Vatican. That continues to date."

No matter what a Council decides on discipline, a Pope or subsequent Council can change it. So the subsequent Popes are not beholden to the Council of Trent or the Second Council of the Vatican on liturgical form. Pope Francis can authorize whatever changes he wishes on the Mass.

In my speculative eschatology:
I think that Pope Francis will restrict the use of the Vetus Ordo, and allow a multitude of forms and perhaps ad libitum variations in the form of the Novus Ordo. But then his conservative successor will widen the use of the Vetus Ordo, and restrict the forms of the Novus Ordo to one or a few.

You can disagree with a Pope or Council on a matter of discipline or liturgical form. But they have the authority to make decisions in those matters. And no Pope or Council is bound by the decision on discipline of past Councils or past Popes. Otherwise, the authority of each successive Pope and Council would be diminished as decisions on discipline accumulated.

St. Thomas More 13th December 2013 10:20 PM

Liturgy
 
OK. Thanks.

What do you think the restrictions will be on TLM? It seems that it's pretty restricted now. You need the faithful to go to the pastor, and the pastor to approve. This requires a choir to sing chant, acolytes who know TLM, different liturgical books, readings, etc. It's not so easy. If the pastor does not approve, there's an appeal to the Bishop, and then the Vatican, from Summorum Pontificum.

But what could the Pope do to minimize a mass that isn't widely said to begin with? Can he prohibit local Pastors from saying it, or allowing it, in their parishes?

What form do you think this restriction will take?

Ron Conte 13th December 2013 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by St. Thomas More (Post 42965)
OK. Thanks.

What do you think the restrictions will be on TLM? It seems that it's pretty restricted now. You need the faithful to go to the pastor, and the pastor to approve. This requires a choir to sing chant, acolytes who know TLM, different liturgical books, readings, etc. It's not so easy. If the pastor does not approve, there's an appeal to the Bishop, and then the Vatican, from Summorum Pontificum.

But what could the Pope do to minimize a mass that isn't widely said to begin with? Can he prohibit local Pastors from saying it, or allowing it, in their parishes?

What form do you think this restriction will take?


I don't know what the restrictions might be. The Pope has the authority to restrict TLM as he sees fit to do. He could let Bishops decide if they want TLM in their diocese at all. He could restrict it to certain orders, and disallow it for diocesan priests.

Pontifex 14th December 2013 12:28 AM

Here is a quote taken from the Encyclical Mirari Vos (Gregory XVI) where it is clearly stated that the Pope is not bound by his predecessors on questions regarding temporal authority, including the Liturgy.

The reference to the ''no private person'', in my view, clearly refers, today, to those extreme conservatice catholics who utterly reject any changes to the
Liturgy.


Quote:

Let those who devise such plans be aware that, according to the testimony of St. Leo, "the right to grant dispensation from the canons is given" only to the Roman Pontiff. He alone, and no private person, can decide anything "about the rules of the Church Fathers." As St. Gelasius writes: "It is the papal responsibility to keep the canonical decrees in their place and to evaluate the precepts of previous popes so that when the times demand relaxation in order to rejuvenate the churches, they may be adjusted after diligent consideration."

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16mirar.htm

St. Thomas More 14th December 2013 03:42 PM

Tradition
 
How and when does Sacred Tradition bind us? What practices of the Church are part of sacred tradition?

Ron Conte 14th December 2013 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by St. Thomas More (Post 42970)
How and when does Sacred Tradition bind us? What practices of the Church are part of sacred tradition?


Sacred Tradition teaches doctrine, not discipline. No mere practices are part of Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition teaches the whole moral law, and all the articles of faith. Practices and liturgical form are discipline, not doctrine.

So when we people talk about tradition and the Mass, they are not referring to Sacred Tradition, but to human traditions, which are changeable.

The teachings of Tradition and Scripture are binding when taught by the Magisterium, or when we perceive the teachings of Tradition and Scripture as truth, and are thereby bound by our consciences to believe and to act in accord with that belief.


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:27 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.