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  #1  
Old 23rd May 2013, 03:52 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Can atheists be saved without converting?

Can atheists be saved without converting?
Pope Francis says: "Yes".

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013...ace/en1-694445

See my post:
Salvation for Atheists and Agnostics
http://ronconte.wordpress.com/2011/0...and-agnostics/
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  #2  
Old 23rd May 2013, 05:24 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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Here is a secular media report:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3320757.html

What the Pope is saying is a Catholic teaching for many years. Actually, this is a teaching of Christ Himself as mentioned in the Gospels; nevertheless, the way our Pope said it and with all media technology we have now, is getting a lot of attention and this seems that it is something new to many people, even some Catholics.

"For love covers a multitude of sins." 1 Peter 4:8

"Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause of offense in him. - 1 John 2:10

Even atheists (sincere atheists - who look for truth, of course):
[1 John]
{2:5} But whoever keeps his word, truly in him the charity of God is perfected. And by this we know that we are in him.
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Old 6th July 2013, 01:44 PM
Seelos Seelos is offline
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I've read both links and I'm really having a hard time accepting this overall. Yes, it is possible for an atheist to be saved, but it is more of a "with God all things are possible" type of deal. Honestly, humanly speaking, it is very nearly impossible. Many who DO believe sincerely find it hard to stay the course and not fall away.
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Old 6th July 2013, 07:57 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seelos View Post
I've read both links and I'm really having a hard time accepting this overall. Yes, it is possible for an atheist to be saved, but it is more of a "with God all things are possible" type of deal. Honestly, humanly speaking, it is very nearly impossible. Many who DO believe sincerely find it hard to stay the course and not fall away.

If you truly believe that "with God all things are possible", then why do you speak as if it hardly ever happens? Salvation is not from human persons, but from God-made-man.

It is easiest to be saved by being a believing and practicing Catholic. And it must be quite difficult to be saved without any belief in God. But I'm sure that by the infinite mercy of God, it happens often that even atheists and agnostics are saved.
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Old 6th July 2013, 11:22 PM
Seelos Seelos is offline
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1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

It appears that for an atheist to be saved God must determine him as inculpable. Can there be invincible ignorance when one has a willful rejection of God and His existence, doesn't that fly in the face of the moral law in the conscience of all?? Pope Francis essentially says 'doing good' is a commandment from God written in the hearts of all. I assume it's a reference to the Moral Law cited above, I don't see how that would exclude belief in God in some way.

Also I dont think the pope is saying an atheist outside of conversion can be saved. He says basically Christ died for all including atheist, and that all are commanded to follow God's moral law. If the moral law makes atheism culpable they are without excuse. Can you explain to me how the moral law does not apply to a true atheist?
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Old 7th July 2013, 02:02 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Each person has the natural law written on his heart. But being in the fallen state, and living in a sinful world makes it harder to perceive those moral truths.

The Church teaches that only unrepentant actual mortal sin condemns a person to Hell. So the sin of rejecting belief in God must be committed by the atheist with full knowledge of its grave immorality and full deliberation. If the atheist sincerely thinks there is no God, or sincerely doubts the existence of God, then it is not an actual mortal sin.

Of course, the atheist could still end up in Hell for sins on some other subject: murder, adultery, theft, etc.
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Old 15th August 2013, 04:39 PM
Pontifex Pontifex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
If you truly believe that "with God all things are possible", then why do you speak as if it hardly ever happens? Salvation is not from human persons, but from God-made-man.

It is easiest to be saved by being a believing and practicing Catholic. And it must be quite difficult to be saved without any belief in God. But I'm sure that by the infinite mercy of God, it happens often that even atheists and agnostics are saved.


From Pope St .Simplicius (Council of Arles 475, Denz. 160b) :


Also that Christ, God and Redeemer, as far as it pertained to the riches of His goodness, offered the price of death for all, and because He, who is the Savior of all, especially of the faithful, does not wish anyone to perish, rich unto all who call upon him [Rom. 10:12] . . . . Now by the authority of the sacred witnesses, which are found in (Treat profusion through the extent of the Divine Scriptures, in accordance with the doctrine of our elders made clear by reason, I freely confess that Christ came also for the lost, because they perished although He did not will [it]. For it is not right that the riches of His boundless goodness and His divine benefits be confined to those only who seem to have been saved.
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  #8  
Old 29th August 2013, 02:33 AM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
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We are not ones to judge who is saved and who is not, lest our pride cause us to be the first in line going in the wrong direction.
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Old 29th August 2013, 11:34 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garabandalg View Post
We are not ones to judge who is saved and who is not, lest our pride cause us to be the first in line going in the wrong direction.

We should not judge particular persons. But it is a legitimate question in salvation theology as to whether persons from particular groups can be saved without converting.
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  #10  
Old 28th April 2014, 03:12 AM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
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Default I agree

I definately agree with that view. We should not point fingers, but we can point minds and invite reflection.
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