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  #1  
Old 30th December 2012, 03:33 PM
Pontifex Pontifex is offline
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Default The Incarnation

Ron,

When we say that God is unchanging, how do we reconcile the idea that the Second Person of the Trinity incarnated himself and therefore ''changed'' the Trinity ?
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Old 30th December 2012, 04:09 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Ron,

When we say that God is unchanging, how do we reconcile the idea that the Second Person of the Trinity incarnated himself and therefore ''changed'' the Trinity ?

The Divine Nature did not change at all. A human nature was created which was united, from the first moment of its creation, with the Divine Nature. This does not imply change in the Divine Nature.

When the elect enter heaven and are united to God in love, there is no change in God, only in the elect souls that enters heaven and receives the beatific vision of God.
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Old 30th December 2012, 04:41 PM
Pontifex Pontifex is offline
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But the Divine Nature now has a body whereas before the Incarnation it did not ? How is this not a change ?
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Old 30th December 2012, 05:40 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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But the Divine Nature now has a body whereas before the Incarnation it did not ? How is this not a change ?

The Divine Nature does not include the human nature of Christ. It is a dogma of the faith that the two natures remain distinct, and that neither changes the nature of the other. The Divine Nature remains unchanged. The human nature remains truly human.
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Old 30th December 2012, 07:55 PM
Pontifex Pontifex is offline
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The Divine Nature does not include the human nature of Christ.

Ron, I am trying to understand.

So, in Heaven, Jesus is without his glorified body ?

Or can we say that one day, God the Second Person of the Trinity did not have a body, and than became Incarnate and will forever have a body ? If this is the case, how is this not a change ?
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Old 30th December 2012, 08:40 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Ron, I am trying to understand.

So, in Heaven, Jesus is without his glorified body ?

Or can we say that one day, God the Second Person of the Trinity did not have a body, and than became Incarnate and will forever have a body ? If this is the case, how is this not a change ?

The human nature of Jesus remained united, body and soul, to the Divine Nature, continuously since the Incarnation. This fact does not change the Divine Nature. They are two different natures. So when Jesus died, his human nature experienced death, but His Divine Nature did not change.

The body and soul of Jesus never become part of the Divine Nature. They are two different things.
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Old 30th December 2012, 10:59 PM
Arax Arax is offline
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Ron,

I know you have discussed this before, but it came up during the homily at Mass today. What did Jesus know in his humanity about his divinity when he was a child?
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Old 30th December 2012, 11:06 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Ron,

I know you have discussed this before, but it came up during the homily at Mass today. What did Jesus know in his humanity about his divinity when he was a child?

His human nature had the beatific vision from conception/Incarnation, so his human mind could know anything that he willed to know (but he did not will to know anything inordinate). His finite human mind cannot completely understand Divine mysteries. But he had knowledge from the beatific vision.

It is still something of an open question as to what the extent and type of his human knowledge was. But he certainly did not know, in his human mind, all things all in one act. Only the Divine Nature has that type of complete and unlimited knowledge.

Christ's soul and his human knowledge

471 Apollinarius of Laodicaea asserted that in Christ the divine Word had replaced the soul or spirit. Against this error the Church confessed that the eternal Son also assumed a rational, human soul. [100]

472 This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, “increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favour with God and man”, [101] and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience. [102] This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking “the form of a slave”. [103]

467 We confess that one and the same Christ, Lord, and only-begotten Son, is to be acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division or separation. the distinction between the natures was never abolished by their union, but rather the character proper to each of the two natures was preserved as they came together in one person and one hypostasis.

473 But at the same time, this truly human knowledge of God's Son expressed the divine life of his person. “The human nature of God's Son, not by itself but by its union with the Word, knew and showed forth in itself everything that pertains to God.” Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father. The Son in his human knowledge also showed the divine penetration he had into the secret thoughts of human hearts.

474 By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal. What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.
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  #9  
Old 30th December 2012, 11:33 PM
Arax Arax is offline
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Thank you so much for your response. It helps to clarify things.
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