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  #11  
Old 19th September 2014, 06:21 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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This might be a division in an order, like the Jesuits, rather than a division in a "Congregation" of the Holy See.
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  #12  
Old 19th September 2014, 06:26 PM
Keva Keva is offline
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.


Cardinal Gerhard Ludwig Müller is also prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the faith...


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  #13  
Old 12th October 2014, 04:52 AM
mort mort is offline
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There is no salvation outside of the Church, thus being Catholic is necessary for salvation.

As an aside, I think it's more likely Pope Francis will depose himself ipso facto by promulgating the divorced and remarried can receive Communion than anything else (and doing as I would usher in the Apostasy.)
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  #14  
Old 12th October 2014, 11:45 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mort View Post
There is no salvation outside of the Church, thus being Catholic is necessary for salvation.

As an aside, I think it's more likely Pope Francis will depose himself ipso facto by promulgating the divorced and remarried can receive Communion than anything else (and doing as I would usher in the Apostasy.)

Pope Saint John Paul II taught that being Catholic or Christian is not necessary for salvation, because some persons can be members of the Church implicitly (by a baptism of desire).

"The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all."
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo...missio_en.html

This is the teaching of the Church. The idea of a baptism of desire is also Church teaching. So it is not true that one must be Catholic to be saved.

Pope Francis is a validly elected Pope, who freely accepted his office; he is he Bishop of Rome. So he cannot fall into heresy and become automatically excommunicated. The promise of Christ that the Church will not fail (the indefectibility of the Church) prevents any valid Pope from falling into heresy.

Permitting communion to the divorced and remarried is a decision of the prudential order (discipline), not doctrine. So it is not even a question of heresy.
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  #15  
Old 12th October 2014, 01:38 PM
mort mort is offline
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Pope Saint John Paul II taught that being Catholic or Christian is not necessary for salvation, because some persons can be members of the Church implicitly (by a baptism of desire).

The Holy Father's words would have to be analyzed and considered in context because to say membership in the Church is not necessary is heresy.


"Not without sorrow we have learned that another error, no less destructive, has taken possession of some parts of the Catholic world, and has taken up its abode in the souls of many Catholics who think that one should have good hope of the eternal salvation of all those who have never lived in the true Church of Christ. Therefore, they are wont to ask very often what will be the lot and condition of those who have not submitted in any way to the Catholic faith, and, by bringing forward most vain reasons, they make a response favorable to their false opinion. Far be it from Us, Venerable Brethren, to presume on the limits of the divine mercy which is infinite; far from Us, to wish to scrutinize the hidden counsel and "judgements of God" which are "a great abyss" (Ps. 35.7) and cannot be penetrated by human thought. But, as is Our Apostolic Duty, we wish your episcopal solicitude and vigilance to be aroused, so that you will strive as much as you can to drive form the mind of men that impious and equally fatal opinion, namely, that the way of eternal salvation can be found in any religion whatsoever. May you demonstrate with skill and learning in which you excel, to the people entrusted to your care that the dogmas of the Catholic faith are in no wise opposed to divine mercy and justice.

"For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains 'we shall see God as He is' (1 John 3.2), we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" (Eph. 4.5); it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.
"But, just as the way of charity demands, let us pour forth continual prayers that all nations everywhere may be converted to Christ; and let us be devoted to the common salvation of men in proportion to our strength, 'for the hand of the Lord is not shortened' (Isa. 9.1) and the gifts of heavenly grace will not be wanting to those who sincerely wish and ask to be refreshed by this light."

Singulari Quadem, December 9, 1854. Pope Pius IX
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  #16  
Old 12th October 2014, 01:56 PM
mort mort is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Pope Francis is a validly elected Pope, who freely accepted his office; he is he Bishop of Rome. So he cannot fall into heresy and become automatically excommunicated. The promise of Christ that the Church will not fail (the indefectibility of the Church) prevents any valid Pope from falling into heresy.

I'm surprised you hold to such a strict opinion, Ron. Many of our greatest theologians, such as St. Robert Bellarmine, Cajetan and Suarez, all who fully believed in Papal Infallibility also believed in the hypothetical possibility of heretical Pope. Here is St Bellarmine for example:

"A pope who is a manifest heretic automatically (per se) ceases
to be pope and head, just as he ceases automatically to be a
Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be
judged and punished by the Church. This is the teaching of all
the ancient Fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately
lose all jurisdiction."


De Romano Pnotifice. 11.20.

Quote:
Permitting communion to the divorced and remarried is a decision of the prudential order (discipline), not doctrine. So it is not even a question of heresy.

I disagree that it's just pastoral. Are the remarried not in a state of mortal sin since they are in an adulterous relationship? Would them not receiving communion be a mortal sin of sacrilegious reception?
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  #17  
Old 12th October 2014, 02:43 PM
JoAnne JoAnne is offline
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Default What would be the answer?

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Ron if I am not mistaken the current teaching of the Church is that everyone is saved through the catholic church. However, if you are of a different religion/belief you still can be saved. This still happens through the merits of church however, even though one may not be aware of it.

What happens to a soul who is born into and follows the Catholic Faith, marries in the Catholic Faith and then meets a Jehovah Witness woman, leaves his wife and children, DENOUNCES the Catholic Church by action (writes a letter to our Bishop that he no longer belongs nor believes in the RC church) and joins the Jehovah Witness (religion) and marries the other woman and has a family with her.
In eyes of the Catholic Church can one who has been baptized in the Catholic church be saved if you denounce the Church and join another? I know we are not to judge but in this picture what would be the answer, especially when this person now believes in something totally different in the teaching of the Catholic faith and states we are in the 'wrong' religion. This happened to me years ago, and I often wonder how the church views people who leave our faith and join another - especially ones with completely different ideas and beliefs ----Ron, would appreciate your thoughts on this ---thank you

Last edited by JoAnne : 12th October 2014 at 02:46 PM.
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  #18  
Old 12th October 2014, 02:47 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quotes saying "Outside the Church, there is no salvation" do not prove your position, because the Roman Catholic Magisterium has taught that persons who are non-Catholic and non-Christian can still be member of the Church implicitly, just as I proved from JP2's encyclical above.

Catholics are required to believe what the Magisterium teaches, even if the Saints expressed a different theological opinion. It is a false dichotomy to speak as if any of the Saints would ever accuse a Pope of heresy, or would reject a teaching of the Magisterium based on their own opinion.

Jesus taught:
{16:18} And I say to you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.
{16:19} And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound, even in heaven. And whatever you shall release on earth shall be released, even in heaven.”

The hypothetical wherein a Pope commits heresy and is automatically excommunicated cannot occur, because Jesus guaranteed the indefectibility of the Church. And no Saint has ever accused a Pope of heresy, and been proven correct. Each Pope accepts the authority of all the previous valid Popes. Each Ecumenical Council does the same.
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  #19  
Old 12th October 2014, 02:51 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoAnne View Post
What happens to a soul who is born into and follows the Catholic Faith, marries in the Catholic Faith and then meets a Jehovah Witness woman, leaves his wife and children, DENOUNCES the Catholic Church by action (writes a letter to our Bishop that he no longer belongs nor believes in the RC church) and joins the Jehovah Witness (religion) and marries the other woman and has a family with her.
In eyes of the Catholic Church can one who has been baptized in the Catholic church be saved if you denounce the Church and join another? I know we are not to judge but in this picture what would be the answer, especially when this person now believes in something totally different in the teaching of the Catholic faith and states we are in the 'wrong' religion. This happened to me years ago, and I often wonder how the church views people who leave our faith and join another - especially ones with completely different ideas and beliefs ----Ron, would appreciate your thoughts on this ---thank you

The rejection of Catholicism is an objective mortal sin. But only actual mortal sin deserves eternal punishment. So if a persons refuses to become Christian or Catholic, or departs from the Faith, but without the full culpability of actual mortal sin, then he or she can still be saved.

Many people are in a state of invincible ignorance concerning Catholicism as the Ark of Salvation. But all persons of good will, who are in a state of grace by baptism of desire and by love of neighbor, are members of the one Church.
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  #20  
Old 12th October 2014, 02:56 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Pope Pius IX: "There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments." [Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, n. 7]

Letter from the Holy Office (the CDF) to the Archbishop of Boston: "To gain eternal salvation, it is not always required that a person be incorporated in reality (reapse) as a member of the Church, but it is necessary that one belong to it at least in desire and longing (voto et desiderio). It is not always necessary that this desire be explicit as it is with catechumens. When one is invincibly ignorant, God also accepts an implicit desire, so called because it is contained in the good disposition of soul by which a person wants his or her will to be conformed to God's will."
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