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  #21  
Old 12th October 2014, 04:03 PM
mort mort is offline
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The Magisterium also condemned the following opinions as heretical:

(1) Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation

(2) Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ.

(3) Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.

(4) Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church.


http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm
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  #22  
Old 12th October 2014, 04:42 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mort View Post
The Magisterium also condemned the following opinions as heretical:

(1) Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation

(2) Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ.

(3) Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.

(4) Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church.


http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm

Those assertions are NOT of the Magisterium. I looked up each reference from the "syllabus of errors of Pope Pius IX" which they are taken from. Not a single one is a quote, or even a slight rephrasing of what the cited documents actually say. That syllabus was never published by that Pope. It is not a document of the Magisterium. See the quotes below:

(1) Pius 9 condemned the idea that "it makes no difference to which religion one belongs". So it is best to be Catholic Christian, and as one gets further away from Catholicism in terms of belief, it is more difficult to be saved. But the very same Pope taught that "those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion" can still be saved. See the full quote in my previous post.

(2) 'Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior." '
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanto.htm
But the above quote CANNOT be interpreted as excluding from salvation all who are not formal members of the Church, because the SAME document is the one that allows invincible ignorance to be a path of salvation. Also, the recent teachings of JP2 have clarified that people who have not explicitly become formal members of the Church can still be members implicitly.

(3) I can't find anything in either cited document to support this assertion. I will say that all persons are required by the eternal moral law to seek the fullness of truth that is only in Catholicism. But there is good and truth in other religions. All religions are not equal. But by invincible ignorance, persons of other faiths may be saved.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9maxima.htm
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9interm.htm

(4) Of course, Protestantism is not equal to Catholicism, as this document explains:
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9nostis.htm
However, the point about invincible ignorance and the good will of those who mistake Protestantism for the truest form of Christianity still applies.
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  #23  
Old 12th October 2014, 04:46 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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See my lengthy explanation of Church teaching on salvation here:

<B>Forgiveness and Salvation for Everyone</B>
available in print (paperback, 510 pp.) and in Kindle format.

In this book, I show from Magisterial documents that non-Catholic Christians, non-Christian believers, and non-believers can all be saved without converting, provided that they obtain some form of baptism (including an implicit baptism of desire), and they either avoid all actual mortal sin, or repent before death.
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  #24  
Old 13th October 2014, 03:31 AM
mort mort is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Those assertions are NOT of the Magisterium. I looked up each reference from the "syllabus of errors of Pope Pius IX" which they are taken from. Not a single one is a quote, or even a slight rephrasing of what the cited documents actually say. That syllabus was never published by that Pope. It is not a document of the Magisterium.

Now this is getting very interesting. This is very much so a Magisterial document that was promulgated by Pope Pius IX along with Quanta Cura on December 8th, 1864. It consists of condemned positions followed by a reference to a Papal document enumerating the correct belief (thus you will not find support for the condemned statements in the referenced encyclicals.)

And so again, following are condemned positions:

(1) Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation

(2) Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ.

(3) Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.

(4) Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church.
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  #25  
Old 13th October 2014, 03:43 AM
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So for example, the following opinion is condemned:

"Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ."

A reference is given to Quanto conficiamur which states the following:

"Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

"Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior."[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;"[5] "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;"[6] "He who does not believe will be condemned;"[7] "He who does not believe is already condemned;"[8] "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are "perverted and self-condemned;"[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them "false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction."[11]
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  #26  
Old 13th October 2014, 11:10 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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OK, I see that the Syllabus was promulgated by the Holy See. It appears to be a document of the Holy Office (CDF), not formally a papal document. But then it is still of the Magisterium. My mistake. Let's go through the condemned assertions.

(1) Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation

This condemned assertion has to be taken in the context of the other teachings of the Magisterium, including the passage you and I both cited on invincible ignorance. So the rejection of this assertion cannot be interpreted to mean that only Catholics are saved. It means that the Catholic faith alone has the fullness of truth on salvation, so all religions are not equal in helping one attain eternal salvation. Some religions help one in the path of salvation, though not as much as Catholicism. Other religions (pagan ones, for example) are more of a hindrance than a help. But this does not imply that adherents of lesser religions cannot be saved.

(2) Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ.

You are ignoring JP2's teaching when you interpret this point. The members of the true Church of Christ include persons who are implicit members, but not formal members. For example, baptized Protestants are members of the Church, because the Church holds that their baptism is valid. They can be saved if they are invincibly ignorant that Catholicism is the truest form of Christianity.

Notice that the phrasing says "not at all", implying that some persons are members of the Church in one sense but not another. Persons may be in a state of grace by an implicit baptism of desire, even if they are not Christians. And all persons in a state of grace are members of the Church, because baptism is the only way to enter the state of grace, and baptism makes one a member.

(3) Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.

The reason this assertion is false is that God gave us Divine Revelation, not reason alone, to guide us to salvation. Each person certainly must follow his conscience to try to find the truths of faith and morals:

"All persons are bound to seek the truth in those things which regard God and his Church and by virtue of divine law are bound by the obligation and possess the right of embracing and observing the truth which they have come to know." Canon 748 n. 1

(4) Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church.

Of course it is false to equate Protestantism to Catholicism. However, this does not imply that Protestants cannot be saved.

Mort,

These individual parts of the syllabus must be interpreted in the light of the more recent teachings of the Magisterium, including those of Pope Saint John Paul II. There is no salvation outside the Church. But the Church includes all persons in a state of grace. And people can enter the state of grace by an implicit baptism of desire, not solely by Christian or Catholic baptism.
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  #27  
Old 13th October 2014, 02:09 PM
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Interesting that Jesus taught us with the parable of the "Good Samaritan" (someone who practiced a different religion). The good Samaritan is an example of those who go to Heaven.

All those who love God above all and neighbor as self (thus not being in a state of actual mortal sin) go to Heaven. Even an atheist who mistakenly believes that there is no God (for a sinful world obscure our minds), but sincerely seeks the truth and loves his neighbor, may go to Heaven. His path is more difficult, but may go to Heaven.

Now, someone who explicitly knows that Catholicism is the true religion, the One and only Church built by Jesus Christ Himself, and yet rejects Her, thus being in a state of actual mortal sin, will go to Hell if does not repent before death.
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  #28  
Old 13th October 2014, 02:13 PM
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[Mark]
{9:35} And taking a child, he set him in their midst. And when he had embraced him, he said to them:
{9:36} “Whoever receives one such child in my name, receives me. And whoever receives me, receives not me, but him who sent me.”
{9:37} John responded to him by saying, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name; he does not follow us, and so we prohibited him.”
{9:38} But Jesus said: “Do not prohibit him. For there is no one who can act with virtue in my name and soon speak evil about me.
{9:39} For whoever is not against you is for you.
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  #29  
Old 13th October 2014, 03:15 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Jesus taught that the only sin not forgiven by God is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is final impenitence: the refusal through the last moment of life to repent from actual mortal sin. Therefore, anyone who is not guilty of actual mortal sin, or who repents before death, is saved.

{12:31} For this reason, I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
{12:32} And anyone who will have spoken a word against the Son of man shall be forgiven. But whoever will have spoken against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven, neither in this age, nor in the future age.

Rejecting Catholic Christianity, if one has sufficient accurate knowledge, is an objective mortal sin. But it might not be an actual mortal sin. Many persons today sincerely but mistakenly believe that Catholicism is not the truest form of religion. They can still be saved because of invincible ignorance on this point. But they still must avoid mortal sins in other areas of life, or at least repent before death.

The idea that only Catholics are saved is incompatible with the current teachings of the Magisterium: the CCC, Pope John Paul II, and Vatican II.
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  #30  
Old 13th October 2014, 06:58 PM
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I can only offer a quick reply at this point. I want to clarify first of all that I am not promoting Feeney-ism, what the Church has taught is that it is necessary to be Catholic. A person who can not come in contact with the Gospel, such as the hypothetical pagan living on an isolated island can't be guilty for what he does not know and so can't be blamed for not being Catholic. What this does not mean is that such a pagan has a free ticket to heaven, in fact without the truth it will be exceedingly difficult for such a person to make it. What has to be kept in mind is that if such a person was saved it would be despite his religion and that person would have been incorporated into the mystical body of Christ. The reality is we simply do not know what happens to such souls and must entrust them to the mercy of God.

Furthermore, although protestants are incorporated into the Church through valid baptism they separate themselves the moment they reach the age of reason and become guilty of heresy. In my opinion Protestants are not in a category that renders them invincibily ignorant.
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