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  #11  
Old 23rd November 2016, 08:29 PM
Hands of Truth Hands of Truth is offline
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I understand your response. However, it my understanding that the four cardinals have asked only for the pope to clarify certain statements. I don't believe their intent is to teach or correct the Pope, or to issue a formal correction.

Maybe, I am wrong and it is, but they don't seem to be presenting it in that manner.
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  #12  
Old 23rd November 2016, 08:34 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands of Truth View Post
I understand your response. However, it my understanding that the four cardinals have asked only for the pope to clarify certain statements. I don't believe their intent is to teach or correct the Pope, or to issue a formal correction.

Maybe, I am wrong and it is, but they don't seem to be presenting it in that manner.

I disagree. We will see what happens next. Perhaps some or all of the 4 Cardinals will remain faithful during the schism. But do you think that there will not be a schism at all?
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  #13  
Old 23rd November 2016, 08:43 PM
Hands of Truth Hands of Truth is offline
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I have no knowledge of the future whatsoever. A schism may very well occur but I have no certainty of it. My interest is in Truth, and that things are ordered as they should be. If the cardinals have the intention to correct the pope then it is fair enough to report it as such. However, they have not presented it in that manner, and I am hesitant to presume a situation that is not yet clear, because we could be presuming in error and, consequentially, bearing false witness.

Last edited by Hands of Truth : 23rd November 2016 at 08:45 PM.
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  #14  
Old 24th November 2016, 02:38 PM
js1975 js1975 is offline
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Ron,

I am not clear on the situation. Is Amoris Laetitia an infallible document? I thought for it to become infallible we would need all three pillars, including tradition? I am guessing I am looking at this all wrong.

I also thought, based on Galatians 2:11 that in non-infallible cases it is possible to correct the Pope.

If there is a schism from the conservative leaning Cardinals, I can see how it would create mass confusion to the faithful. All along I had expected the liberal leaning Cardinals to splinter, which would be less confusing to faithful Catholics. (using conservative/liberal as one who leans off orthodoxy, in one direction or the other)

And... Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!

Thanks!!
-Jay
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  #15  
Old 24th November 2016, 04:19 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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"Is Amoris Laetitia an infallible document?"
Documents are not infallible. Only a teaching can be infallible.
The teachings in AL do not appear, by my reading, to be infallible. The controversial points are either non-infallible teachings, which could err, or decisions on discipline, which can err.

"I thought for it to become infallible we would need all three pillars, including tradition?"

No, an infallible teaching meets certain criteria.
See my most recent blog post:
When is a teaching of the Church infallible?
https://ronconte.wordpress.com/2016/...ch-infallible/

"I also thought, based on Galatians 2:11 that in non-infallible cases it is possible to correct the Pope."

Peter's error in that passage is of discipline, not doctrine.

It is possible to faithfully disagree with the Pope, but no one has the role to teach or correct him, just as is taught by the Magisterium in Unam Sanctam:
http://www.catholicplanet.com/TSM/Un...commentary.htm

"7. Therefore, if the earthly power goes astray, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a lesser spiritual power goes astray, [it will be judged] by its superior; and truly, if the highest [power] goes astray, it will not be able to be judged by man, but by God alone."

The highest power in the Church is the Supreme Pontiff. If he errs, we can faithfully and respectfully disagree, but no one has the role of "of issuing a formal correction" as Cardinal Burke claims.

Also, it is arrogant for anyone, even a Cardinal, to assume that, if the Pope's teaching seems to be in error on some point, that one's own understanding cannot be at fault instead. And that assumption is operative today in the minds and hearts of very many conservatives, as it clearly indicated by their words.
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  #16  
Old 27th November 2016, 02:01 PM
Keva Keva is offline
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-

There are some messages in Anguera speaking of "Order of Malta" as future betrayers of catholic church and about something or someone coming out of that order as an enemy. That cardinal Burke is in Order of Malta...
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  #17  
Old 1st December 2016, 10:09 PM
Filotea Filotea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands of Truth View Post
I understand your response. However, it my understanding that the four cardinals have asked only for the pope to clarify certain statements. I don't believe their intent is to teach or correct the Pope, or to issue a formal correction.

Maybe, I am wrong and it is, but they don't seem to be presenting it in that manner.

I sincerely agree with Hands of Truth.We are exactly on the same page. I just hope that Pope Francis clarifies what he really means, because as of now, it clearly contradicts the doctrine of the church.
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  #18  
Old 2nd December 2016, 04:25 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filotea View Post
I sincerely agree with Hands of Truth.We are exactly on the same page. I just hope that Pope Francis clarifies what he really means, because as of now, it clearly contradicts the doctrine of the church.

Hi Filotea,

It does not "clearly contradict the doctrine of the Church" because that would be heresy. You may have misunderstood the Church's doctrine, and also, Church's doctrine never changes, but develops in its understanding.

You can let us know what paragraph (or part) of Amoris Laetitia you think contradicts Church's doctrine and, together, we'll go through it.

Seeking the Truth is seeking God, for God is Truth.

Also, see this post on who the Church teaches the Pope is:

http://www.catholicplanet.net/forum/...ead.php?t=5971
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  #19  
Old 2nd December 2016, 06:12 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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The USCCB on Amoris Laetitia:

http://www.usccb.org/news/2016/16-127.cfm

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-acti...s-laetitia.cfm
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  #20  
Old 4th December 2016, 02:49 AM
js1975 js1975 is offline
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A little late in my reply, but Thanks Ron.

Discerning discipline vs. doctrine, and the differences between scenarios when a document such as Amoris Laetitia is published takes me a little time to understand. It seems that the 4 Cardinals had a right to question the document, specifically because the document is non-infallible and it may contain errors in it. (Please correct me here where I am mistaken)

Prayers for you Ron for your back. I hope you get relief.

-Jay
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