st.joseph

[zouxi]

greetings ron,

it is mentioned in the bible that jesus said that john is the most holy human being ever born (except the virgin mary and jesus), however i have a question:

st. joseph said to a seer (i read it on your website) that he, after mary, surpasses in purity and holiness all humans and angels altogether.

how can we reconcile these two ideas?

thank you.

[Ron Conte]

Originally Posted by zouxi

greetings ron,

it is mentioned in the bible that jesus said that john is the most holy human being ever born (except the virgin mary and jesus), however i have a question:

st. joseph said to a seer (i read it on your website) that he, after mary, surpasses in purity and holiness all humans and angels altogether.

how can we reconcile these two ideas?

thank you.

Jesus said that of all men born of women (i.e. conceived and born with original sin), none is greater than John. Jesus and Mary were free from original sin, so they are not included in those "born of women" in the usual way.

Saint Joseph is perhaps equal to Saint John the Baptist in holiness, since both men were freed from original sin within the womb. They were not born with original sin, since it was removed by their non-formal baptism in the womb. But each man still had concupiscence, and each was able by a special grace of God to avoid all personal sin.

It may be that Saint Joseph is in some way greater than John, since he was given care of the Holy Family. But in any case, since Saint Joseph was freed from original sin in the womb, he is not included in the expression: "among those born of women, there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist" (Mt 11:11).

Which seer what it that said this?

[garabandalg]

It sounds odd to me that St. Joseph would say anything that seems boastful or in any way elevates himself....?

[zouxi]

Originally Posted by Ron Conte

Jesus said that of all men born of women (i.e. conceived and born with original sin), none is greater than John. Jesus and Mary were free from original sin, so they are not included in those "born of women" in the usual way.

Saint Joseph is perhaps equal to Saint John the Baptist in holiness, since both men were freed from original sin within the womb. They were not born with original sin, since it was removed by their non-formal baptism in the womb. But each man still had concupiscence, and each was able by a special grace of God to avoid all personal sin.

It may be that Saint Joseph is in some way greater than John, since he was given care of the Holy Family. But in any case, since Saint Joseph was freed from original sin in the womb, he is not included in the expression: "among those born of women, there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist" (Mt 11:11).

Which seer what it that said this?

http://www.catholicplanet.com/RCC/jo...ver-sinned.htm to sister mildred mary neuzil.(excluding my holy spouse, I surpassed the holiness of the highest angel in the angelic choir.”)
thanks.

[Ron Conte]

Originally Posted by zouxi

http://www.catholicplanet.com/RCC/jo...ver-sinned.htm to sister mildred mary neuzil.(excluding my holy spouse, I surpassed the holiness of the highest angel in the angelic choir.”)
thanks.

OK. That's not the same as holier than "all humans and angels altogether". It does make sense to say that St. Joseph is holier than any angel, since he is the chaste spouse of Mary, foster father of the Christ-child, and the head of the holy family.

The apparitions to Sister Mildred were approved by Archbishop Burke, when he was ordinary of St. Louis MO.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/burkeolamer.htm
The apparitions still await official approval by the Church.

[zouxi]

Originally Posted by Ron Conte

OK. That's not the same as holier than "all humans and angels altogether". It does make sense to say that St. Joseph is holier than any angel, since he is the chaste spouse of Mary, foster father of the Christ-child, and the head of the holy family.

The apparitions to Sister Mildred were approved by Archbishop Burke, when he was ordinary of St. Louis MO.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/burkeolamer.htm
The apparitions still await official approval by the Church.

Sorry Ron, apparently i have misinterpreted/misquoted what St. Joseph said. So St. Joseph is holier than all angels (including St. Michael) and comes in holiness after Mary and John, right?

Thank you.

[Ron Conte]

Originally Posted by zouxi

Sorry Ron, apparently i have misinterpreted/misquoted what St. Joseph said. So St. Joseph is holier than all angels (including St. Michael) and comes in holiness after Mary and John, right?

Thank you.

It is not clear if he is after, before, or equal to John in holiness. I would say that, from our point of view, he and John are on about the same level of holiness. Also, the text said holier than the holiest angel, not holier than all angels put together.

[jbbt9]

Originally Posted by Ron Conte

Jesus said that of all men born of women (i.e. conceived and born with original sin), none is greater than John. Jesus and Mary were free from original sin, so they are not included in those "born of women" in the usual way.

Saint Joseph is perhaps equal to Saint John the Baptist in holiness, since both men were freed from original sin within the womb. They were not born with original sin, since it was removed by their non-formal baptism in the womb. But each man still had concupiscence, and each was able by a special grace of God to avoid all personal sin.

It may be that Saint Joseph is in some way greater than John, since he was given care of the Holy Family. But in any case, since Saint Joseph was freed from original sin in the womb, he is not included in the expression: "among those born of women, there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist" (Mt 11:11).

Which seer what it that said this?

Ron,

where does Adam fit into this discussion?
and Enoch and Joseph? Eccl:14-19

jbbt9

[Ron Conte]

Originally Posted by jbbt9

where does Adam fit into this discussion?
and Enoch and Joseph? Eccl:14-19

The Virgin Mary said to Saint Bridget:
"Know, too, that there is no human body in Heaven but the glorious body of my Son and mine."
Saint Bridget of Sweden, Revelations of St. Bridget, p. 69.

Enoch and Elijah were transferred, in my opinion, to the future, so that they could prophesy against the Antichrist. Another common opinion is that they were transferred to Paradise, where they await the time of the Antichrist.

Joseph died and his body was buried. He was not assumed into heaven.
Adam and Eve died, and their bodies were buried; they were not assumed into heaven.

[jbbt9]

Originally Posted by Ron Conte

The Virgin Mary said to Saint Bridget:
"Know, too, that there is no human body in Heaven but the glorious body of my Son and mine."
Saint Bridget of Sweden, Revelations of St. Bridget, p. 69.

Enoch and Elijah were transferred, in my opinion, to the future, so that they could prophesy against the Antichrist. Another common opinion is that they were transferred to Paradise, where they await the time of the Antichrist.

Joseph died and his body was buried. He was not assumed into heaven.
Adam and Eve died, and their bodies were buried; they were not assumed into heaven.

Ron

Does Eccl.49:19 "above every living creature is Adam" , assert or imply that Adam was holier than Joseph who was buried and even Our Lady who was assumed but was still, nontheless, a "living creature"

or did the claim only hold true at the time it was written and was not including any who came later?

jbbt9