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Old 8th October 2010, 01:04 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default 1 Timothy 3

I ask the members to participate more in the Bible study by commenting, or asking questions. I'll add my comments later.

[1 Timothy 3]
{3:1} It is a faithful saying: if a man desires the episcopate, he desires a good work.
{3:2} Therefore, it is necessary for a bishop to be beyond reproach, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, gracious, chaste, hospitable, a teacher,
{3:3} not a drunkard, not combative but restrained, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
{3:4} but a man who leads his own house well, having children who are subordinate with all chastity.
{3:5} For if a man does not know how to lead his own house, how will he take care of the Church of God?
{3:6} He must not be a new convert, lest, being elated by pride, he may fall under the sentence of the devil.
{3:7} And it is necessary for him also to have good testimony from those who are outside, so that he may not fall into disrepute and the snare of the devil.
{3:8} Similarly, deacons must be chaste, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not pursuing tainted profit,
{3:9} holding to the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience.
{3:10} And these things should be proven first, and then they may minister, being without offense.
{3:11} Similarly, the women must be chaste, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
{3:12} Deacons should be the husband of one wife, men who lead their own children and their own houses well.
{3:13} For those who have ministered well will acquire for themselves a good position, and much confidence in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
{3:14} I am writing these things to you, with the hope that I will come to you soon.
{3:15} But, if I am delayed, you should know the manner in which it is necessary to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and the foundation of truth.
{3:16} And it is clearly great, this mystery of piety, which was manifested in the flesh, which was justified in the Spirit, which has appeared to Angels, which has been preached to the Gentiles, which is believed in the world, which has been taken up in glory.
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Old 8th October 2010, 02:01 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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[1 Timothy 3]
{3:1} It is a faithful saying: if a man desires the episcopate, he desires a good work.

Ron, I don't understand well what St. Paul is trying to say here, what does episcopate mean?... is the episcopate for lay persons too?...



{3:2} Therefore, it is necessary for a bishop to be beyond reproach, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, gracious, chaste, hospitable, a teacher,
{3:3} not a drunkard, not combative but restrained, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
{3:4} but a man who leads his own house well, having children who are subordinate with all chastity.
{3:5} For if a man does not know how to lead his own house, how will he take care of the Church of God?
{3:6} He must not be a new convert, lest, being elated by pride, he may fall under the sentence of the devil.
{3:7} And it is necessary for him also to have good testimony from those who are outside, so that he may not fall into disrepute and the snare of the devil.

Ron,

Many Protestants come to these passages to say why Bishops or priests should marry.
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Old 8th October 2010, 03:11 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother View Post
[1 Timothy 3]
{3:1} It is a faithful saying: if a man desires the episcopate, he desires a good work.

Ron, I don't understand well what St. Paul is trying to say here, what does episcopate mean?... is the episcopate for lay persons too?...

The episcopate is the role of the Bishop only.

Bishop - episcopal
priest - sacerdotal
deacon - deaconal

If a man desires the role of a Bishop, he desires good work.
If a woman desires the role of a Bishop, she desires rebellion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother View Post
{3:2} Therefore, it is necessary for a bishop to be beyond reproach, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, gracious, chaste, hospitable, a teacher,
{3:3} not a drunkard, not combative but restrained, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
{3:4} but a man who leads his own house well, having children who are subordinate with all chastity.
{3:5} For if a man does not know how to lead his own house, how will he take care of the Church of God?
{3:6} He must not be a new convert, lest, being elated by pride, he may fall under the sentence of the devil.
{3:7} And it is necessary for him also to have good testimony from those who are outside, so that he may not fall into disrepute and the snare of the devil.

Ron,

Many Protestants come to these passages to say why Bishops or priests should marry.

Jesus was unmarried. The Bishop and the priest each act in persona Christi, in the person of Christ. Therefore, they must be as much like Christ as possible. Some priests are permitted to marry, because we are mere weak and mortal human beings. But it is never perfect for a man to be both married and a priest; it is an imperfection permitted to some extent. And this is all the more true of a Bishop, who both stands in persona Christi, and who exercises the teaching authority of Christ. A few Bishops in the history of the Church were married, but the overwhelming majority were not.
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Old 8th October 2010, 02:25 PM
Pontifex Pontifex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
I ask the members to participate more in the Bible study by commenting, or asking questions. I'll add my comments later.

[1 Timothy 3]
{3:1} It is a faithful saying: if a man desires the episcopate, he desires a good work.
{3:2} Therefore, it is necessary for a bishop to be beyond reproach, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, gracious, chaste, hospitable, a teacher,
{3:3} not a drunkard, not combative but restrained, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
{3:4} but a man who leads his own house well, having children who are subordinate with all chastity.
{3:5} For if a man does not know how to lead his own house, how will he take care of the Church of God?

Ron,

It is interesting to note that church discipline at the time permitted Bishop's, and I suppose priests, to marry. We also have another scripture verse that informs that St. Peter was married as well. This leads me to think on things that are more perfect in God's view with respect to one's state in life. Is celibacy for the sake of the kingdom a more perfect state in life than that of the ordained person (although ordained persons are today living celibacy) ?.

For those Anglican bishops (all not validly ordained) who convert to Catholicism, would they be permitted to remain married and be ordained to the espicopate ?

Finally, what has more authority, church discipline or Scripture ?
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Old 8th October 2010, 03:18 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by Pontifex View Post
Ron,

It is interesting to note that church discipline at the time permitted Bishop's, and I suppose priests, to marry. We also have another scripture verse that informs that St. Peter was married as well. This leads me to think on things that are more perfect in God's view with respect to one's state in life. Is celibacy for the sake of the kingdom a more perfect state in life than that of the ordained person (although ordained persons are today living celibacy) ?.

The Council of Trent infallibly taught that virginity and celibacy are more perfect than marriage.

CANON X.-If any one saith, that the marriage state is to be placed above the state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be united in matrimony; let him be anathema.

Jesus taught that there is no marriage after the general Resurrection.

[Luke]
{20:33} In the resurrection, then, whose wife will she be? For certainly all seven had her as a wife."
{20:34} And so, Jesus said to them: "The children of this age marry and are given in marriage.
{20:35} Yet truly, those who shall be held worthy of that age, and of the resurrection from the dead, will neither be married, nor take wives.
{20:36} For they can no longer die. For they are equal to the Angels, and they are children of God, since they are children of the resurrection.

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Originally Posted by Pontifex View Post
For those Anglican bishops (all not validly ordained) who convert to Catholicism, would they be permitted to remain married and be ordained to the espicopate ?

Finally, what has more authority, church discipline or Scripture ?

Anglican ministers and 'bishops' who convert are permitted to remain married and to be ordained as priests. They are not permitted to both remain married and be ordained as Bishops.

There was an ancient practice in the Church, when a married priest was being considered for the episcopate, for the promotion to occur only if the husband and wife both freely chose to take a vow of celibacy, so that the Bishop would remain married, but also be celibate. Generally, priests were not permitted to retain the married state and be promoted to Bishop.

The spiritual authority of the Church only teaches the truths found in Tradition and Scripture, and in natural law. But the temporal authority of the Church has the ability to judge and make rule and rulings based on the temporal circumstances, as long as these rules and rulings do not contradict any teaching. Anything in Scripture which is solely of discipline, such as the OT disciplines of dietary restrictions, is fully under the authority of the Church, to change or omit or replace.
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Old 8th October 2010, 04:35 PM
Pontifex Pontifex is offline
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The Council of Trent infallibly taught that virginity and celibacy are more perfect than marriage.

Yes, but my question was is the state of virginity and celibacy for the sake of Christ more perfect than the state of ordained persons (married or unmarried) ?

Can we say that based on the verses from Scripture we are currently studying, they provide sufficient authority for the Magisterium to decide that Bishops, priests and deacons can marry ? Are the verses we are studying solely of discipline, can the Church omit or replace them ?
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Old 8th October 2010, 05:07 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Yes, but my question was is the state of virginity and celibacy for the sake of Christ more perfect than the state of ordained persons (married or unmarried) ?

You are comparing a lay person who is either a virgin or celibate to an ordained person whose marital state is unknown. This type of comparison does not make sense. Let's look at the whole range of states of life.

1. celibate bishop
2. celibate priest
3. married priest
4. celibate deacon
5. married deacon
6. celibate vowed religious brother or sister
7. chaste unmarried virgin layperson
8. chaste unmarried layperson

Any one of these persons, as individuals, might be very holy, or very sinful, or something in-between. However, as a state of life, I think that the above order is correct, from highest state down. Bishops are Apostles, and the celibate Apostle is more like Christ than a celibate priest, and even more like Christ than a married priest. And so on.


The term celibate is sometimes used to refer only to those who have taken a vow or made a promise to remain both chaste (meaning no sex outside of marriage) and unmarried (implying no sex within marriage). In this sense, the term would apply only to ordained persons and to vowed religious.

The term is also used more broadly, to refer to all those persons who intend to remain chaste and unmarried, even apart from a vow or promise. I prefer to use the term celibate in the narrower sense, and to use the term chaste for unmarried persons. Even if a person does not intend to marry, he might change his mind if called by God to the married state at a later time.

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Originally Posted by Pontifex View Post
Can we say that based on the verses from Scripture we are currently studying, they provide sufficient authority for the Magisterium to decide that Bishops, priests and deacons can marry ? Are the verses we are studying solely of discipline, can the Church omit or replace them ?

Whether or not ordained persons can marry is discipline, but all sound discipline must be based on sound doctrine. The passages in question reveal that married persons, in some circumstances, may be ordained by the Church. In other words, the Church has the authority to permit some married persons to be deacons, or priests, or even Bishops.

But I would argue that the Church lacks the authority to decide to have an episcopate or even a priesthood which consists entirely or mainly of married persons. Jesus did not marry. The priesthood and episcopate are based on the Life of Christ. Furthermore, it is a dogma of the Faith (taught by Trent) that the state of celibacy is better than the state of marriage. So the Church is unable to contradict this dogma by the example of a discipline that would have most or all Bishops or priests as married men.

The discipline of celibacy in the priesthood is closely related to the doctrine that there is no marriage after the resurrection, and that celibacy is better than marriage. The Church lacks the authority to choose a discipline that by example contradicts her own dogmas and doctrines. The Church's authority over discipline is limited to disciplines consistent with Church teaching.
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Old 8th October 2010, 07:00 PM
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Thanks for the clarification Ron.
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Old 10th October 2010, 11:10 PM
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{3:11} Similarly, the women must be chaste, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
{3:12} Deacons should be the husband of one wife, men who lead their own children and their own houses well.

Ron, would women deacon be allowed to marry as well as men deacons? From the above passage it looks as if only men deacons could marry.
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Old 10th October 2010, 11:42 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Ron, would women deacon be allowed to marry as well as men deacons? From the above passage it looks as if only men deacons could marry.

No ordained person is permitted to marry (unless he leaves his ministry). A married man is permitted to become a permanent deacon. Some married men are permitted to become priests. But deacons and priests are not permitted to marry after receiving Holy Orders. One may not leave a higher calling for a lower calling.

If the Church decides the question of women deacons so that women might be ordained deaconesses, then a married woman could be permitted to be a deaconess. The Church has the authority to decide such a matter of discipline, even if it is not specifically mentioned in Scripture.
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