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  #1  
Old 26th August 2009, 12:23 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default 1. Men's and Women's roles

We cannot understand the proper roles intended by God for men and women without putting those roles in the proper order, with God as the head of all Creation.

[Romans 13]
{13:1} Let every soul be subject to higher authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those who have been ordained by God.
{13:2} And so, whoever resists authority, resists what has been ordained by God. And those who resist are acquiring damnation for themselves.
{13:3} For leaders are not a source of fear to those who work good, but to those who work evil. And would you prefer not to be afraid of authority? Then do what is good, and you shall have praise from them.
{13:4} For he is a minister of God for you unto good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid. For it is not without reason that he carries a sword. For he is a minister of God; an avenger to execute wrath upon whomever does evil.
{13:5} For this reason, it is necessary to be subject, not solely because of wrath, but also because of conscience.
{13:6} Therefore, you must also offer tribute. For they are the ministers of God, serving him in this.
{13:7} Therefore, render to all whatever is owed. Taxes, to whom taxes is due; revenue, to whom revenue is due; fear, to whom fear is due; honor, to whom honor is due.

The proper order that God intends for the Church, the family, and society begins with God above all. All true obedience is related to obedience to God. All true honor, reverence, subjection, authority, order etc. is based on the place that God has over all Creation.

It follows then that the roles of men and women in the Church, the family, and society find their true and full meaning only within the larger order which has God above all. So all true honor, reverence, subjection, authority, order, obedience, etc. is only a reflection of those things as they pertain to God.

The relationship between Christ and His Church is a type of the relationship between God and all Creation.

Whoever rejects the male-only priesthood is really rejecting the role of God over Creation, and of Christ over the Church. Whoever rejects the role of the husband as head of his wife is really rejecting the role of God over Creation, and of Christ over the Church.

Whoever says there should be no distinction between the roles of men and of women is really saying that there should be no distinction in roles between God and Creation, or between Christ and His Church.

All things are subject to God, and this is the basis for all other subjection.

[1 Corinthians]
{15:26} Lastly, the enemy called death shall be destroyed. For he has subjected all things under his feet. And although he says,
{15:27} “All things have been subjected to him,” without doubt he does not include the One who has subjected all things to him.
{15:28} And when all things will have been subjected to him, then even the Son himself will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to him, so that God may be all in all.

[Romans]
{3:18} There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
{3:19} But we know that whatever the law speaks, it speaks to those who are in the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the entire world may be subject to God.

In order to have the proper attitude toward one another, and truly toward any thing and all things in Creation, we must first and foremost have the proper attitude toward God. Good order in the relations among created persons, and between created persons and created things, flows from good order before God for all Creation.

Next we will consider true holy fear of God.
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Old 26th August 2009, 04:14 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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Thanks Ron for sharing this.
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Old 27th August 2009, 11:52 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Fear of God is mentioned many times in Sacred Scripture.
This is not the emotion fear, just as love of God is not the emotion of love.

Neither is fear of God mere respect, though respect is an element of the fear of God.

We respect the property of others, pets, the environment, etc. So obviously fear of God is much more than mere respect for God.

Authority is an element of the fear of God. We recognize that God has authority over us.

But neither are respect and authority together sufficient to constitute fear of God.

For the authority of God is not empty authority, nor is it based merely on His power over us. The authority of God is based on His Goodness, for He is Justice itself, and Goodness itself.

The fear of God is based on our understanding and acceptance that God is:
our Creator
all powerful
all knowing
all Good
all Just

reason understands that God is the all good all powerful creator,
and free will accepts our place in God's plan

This sheet has some quotes on fear of the Lord from the Book of Sirach
http://www.catholicplanet.com/inform...ord-Sirach.pdf

[Sirach]
{1:16} The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and was created with the faithful in the womb, and walks with elect women, and is known by the just and the faithful.
{1:17} The fear of the Lord is the sanctity of knowledge.

{1:20} To fear God is the fullness of wisdom, and it is a fullness from its fruits.
{1:21} She will fill her entire house from her offspring, and storehouses from her treasures.
{1:22} The fear of the Lord is the crown of wisdom, the completion of peace, and the fruit of salvation.
{1:23} And the fear of the Lord has seen and numbered wisdom; but both are gifts of God.

{25:13} How great is he who finds wisdom and knowledge! But there is no one above him who fears the Lord.
{25:14} The fear of God has set itself above all things.
{25:15} Blessed is the man to whom it has been given to have the fear of God. He who holds to it, to whom can he be compared?
{25:16} The fear of God is the beginning of his love; and the beginning of faith has been joined closely to the same.

This is not the type of fear that is cast out by perfect love:

{4:18} Fear is not in love. Instead, perfect love casts out fear, for fear pertains to punishment. And whoever fears is not perfected in love.

The fear of punishment, especially just punishment due to our sins, is cast out by love.

However, the fear of the Lord is always found with true love of God and neighbor. Even in heaven with the Beatific Vision of God the Elect have true fear of God -- not the emotion of fear, not fear of punishment, but true holy fear of God, recognizing his authority and goodness over us, and accepting, even rejoicing in our place in that plan.
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Old 27th August 2009, 03:29 PM
Shane Shane is offline
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Would humility and meekness be the result of a holy fear of God?
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Old 27th August 2009, 03:53 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane View Post
Would humility and meekness be the result of a holy fear of God?

All the virtues are interrelated.
St. Teresa of Avila: "For when the Lord really gives one of these solid virtues, it seems to bring all the rest in its train."
The holy fear of God leads to all virtue.
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Old 27th August 2009, 07:15 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Fear of the Lord is experienced by us in three types:

1. holy fear of God due to our sins; this is still not the emotion of fear, but the realization that we have sinned before an all knowing God who is merciful, but not in such a manner as to be unjust. There are just and merciful punishments on sinners from God

2. holy fear of God due to our imperfections; we have imperfections due to original sin (concupiscence), and due to the negative effects of our own past sins, and the sins of others (such as living in a sinful society), and we have various degrees and types of imperfection, which are not themselves sins, but which often are either caused by sin or lead to sin.

3. holy fear of God due to the truth that we are finite, we are but dust from the earth into which God breathed life, and yet God is infinite.

The first two types of holy fear of God disappear in Heaven, when we will no longer sin, have paid all our debt for past sins, and even have no imperfections. But we will always be finite, and God will always be infinite. And so we will have this third type of fear of God even in Heaven.
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Old 28th August 2009, 12:47 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Adam and Eve

Adam and Eve before the Fall represent men and women without sin.

Adam is made from the dust of the earth, into which God breathed life. This indicates that all true and good relationships within humanity are ordered within the relationship between God and humanity. Ignore or reject God, and human relationships fall apart in very many ways.

Eve is made from the side of Adam. This indicates that Adam and Eve are equal as concerns their nature. Eve is made of the same flesh as blood as Adam. So men and women are made of body, spirit, soul. Just as the Three Persons of the Trinity are equal because they have the same nature, so also are men and women equal because they have the same nature.

Adam was made first; Eve was made to be a helper to Adam. This is prior to any human sin. Adam and Eve are not equal as concerns their roles. Adam and Eve have different roles due to differences in gender; this difference is not superficial, nor does it extend only to reproductive roles (that women bear and raise chlildren). The difference in roles is fundamental to the Church, the family, and society.

Women cannot be priest or Bishop or Pope, because gender roles are fundamental, not superficial, and because gender roles are not limited to reproduction or family. Roles within the Church are partly determined by gender.

As further proof of this, consider that we are saved solely by Jesus, with Mary as His helper. She was not an Apostle or Pope or Bishop or priest, even though she is holier than all of fallen humanity put together. Her role is not coincidentally feminine, it is fundamentally feminine. Mary was created to be a helper to Christ, just as Eve was created to be a helper to Adam. God did not save us by becoming incarnate in one man and one woman. God did not give Mary the same role as Christ, nor even the same role as the Apostles. Differences in gender roles extend even into the way that God chose to save us.
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Old 28th August 2009, 02:29 PM
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I don't understand why some priests don't comprehend this and fall away by attempting to ordain some women as "priests". Is this not taught in the Seminaries? This should be one of the primordial teachings before becoming a priest.
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Old 28th August 2009, 02:51 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother View Post
I don't understand why some priests don't comprehend this and fall away by attempting to ordain some women as "priests". Is this not taught in the Seminaries? This should be one of the primordial teachings before becoming a priest.

They learned from secular society that there is (supposedly) no substantial difference between men and women, other than the mere physical differences, and that there should be no difference in roles. Then they measure the Church's teaching as true or false based on what they learned from secular society. Many Catholics have fallen into this type of error. Secular society is their teacher, and they make themselves judges over the teaching of Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium.

Then when some false teacher comes along, taking the teachings of secular society and disguising it as Catholic teaching, they readily accept that teaching, since they already learned it from their own culture.
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Old 5th November 2010, 12:02 PM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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this is an interview for her " World Religions course'" she said - I would greatly appreciate any help/response.

1. What do you see as the accepted roles for women within Catholicism?
2. How do you feel that the status and roles for women have evolved within Catholicism?
3. What challenges do Catholic women face today?
4. Are your religious beliefs in accordance with your belief's in women's rights?
5. If you had the power to change a single characteristic of Catholicism, what would you change and why?
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