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Old 25th August 2008, 05:58 PM
js1975 js1975 is offline
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Default Hail, Full of Grace

All,

I need some guidance. I have a protestant friend with whom I discuss religion quite a bit. He is an elder (I think that is deacon equivalent), and has a good grasp of the bible. We are discussing (at odds a bit) Mary, which is an obvious hot spot. Luke 1:28, notably states two separate translations. The Catholic translation is hail, full of grace, while the NIV states "greetings, you who are highly favored".

When going back to Latin, "gratia plena", his point was that original text is in Greek, which is, "kexaritomena" which means highly favored, while the term full of grace is: "plaras karitos".

I thought that to discuss that would be a natural point, however Stephen is referred to as Plaras Karitos, but not Mary.

Can someone help me sort through all this? Also, in terms of Mary never commiting a sin, can someone tell me how this is approached strictly from the Bible?

Thanks!!!
jay
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2cor 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, most beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God.
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Old 25th August 2008, 07:18 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by js1975 View Post
When going back to Latin, "gratia plena", his point was that original text is in Greek, which is, "kexaritomena" which means highly favored, while the term full of grace is: "plaras karitos".

I thought that to discuss that would be a natural point, however Stephen is referred to as Plaras Karitos, but not Mary.
He is using a dictionary argument: 'The dictionary says that this word means that... therefore [theological conclusion]'

But the meaning of Sacred inspired Scripture cannot be dependent on the dictionary, which is not inspired. The Bible is full of profound meaning, far beyond what any dictionary could express.

Tradition and the Magisterium have understood that word of phrase, in any language, to mean that Mary is entirely filled with the grace of God.

It is not worth your time to debate the dictionary meaning of words in ancient Greek. The Faith is not based on such things, nor should you ever speak as if it were.
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Old 26th August 2008, 02:04 AM
js1975 js1975 is offline
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Thanks, I kinda learned that by beating my head against a wall. In the meantime, I found the passage on USCCB's website says the same thing:

And coming to her, he said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you." (good job USCCB, the hail mary prayer must be wrong then?!?)

At that point I continued to beat my head against the wall....

I realized through this discussion that actually lasted for about 5 hours, that I more blindly had faith without fully knowing actual details that I could explain to someone else. It was probably a fruitful exercise that showed that I have to be better prepared to explain my beliefs.

Overall it was a fun conversation, however, because he sits next to me all day every day, I have to get my act together....

thanks,
-jay
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2cor 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, most beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God.
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Old 7th September 2008, 06:23 AM
Justin Angel Justin Angel is offline
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Cool "Chaire kecharitomene."

Quote:
Originally Posted by js1975 View Post
All,

I need some guidance. I have a protestant friend with whom I discuss religion quite a bit. He is an elder (I think that is deacon equivalent), and has a good grasp of the bible. We are discussing (at odds a bit) Mary, which is an obvious hot spot. Luke 1:28, notably states two separate translations. The Catholic translation is hail, full of grace, while the NIV states "greetings, you who are highly favored".

When going back to Latin, "gratia plena", his point was that original text is in Greek, which is, "kexaritomena" which means highly favored, while the term full of grace is: "plaras karitos".

I thought that to discuss that would be a natural point, however Stephen is referred to as Plaras Karitos, but not Mary.

Can someone help me sort through all this? Also, in terms of Mary never commiting a sin, can someone tell me how this is approached strictly from the Bible?

Thanks!!!
jay

It is true that Stephen is described as "filled with grace" in Acts 6:8, and here the phrase is 'pleres charitos'. In Luke 1:28, the expression 'kecharitomene' means "full of grace". Moreover, Mary is not merely described as being full of grace; she is addressed "full of grace". The angel Gabriel greets and addresses Mary by substituting her given name for her immaculate state of sinlessness. A filled glass of water is not necessarily a full glass of water. Mary's soul was full of grace, and so there was no room in her soul for sin to occupy, as air may have space to occupy a partially filled glass of water. Luke confirms the Church's perception of Mary as one who was spiritually pure and undefiled. The evangelist does draw a clear parallel between Mary and the ark of the Old Covenant in his Infancy Narrative. Thus it would appear that he believed and taught Mary was sinless, since she was chosen to carry the holy child (the Word made flesh) in her womb.

In the Magnificat Mary declares: "My 'soul' proclaims the greatness of the Lord, and my 'spirit' rejoices in God my saviour." Luke has Mary speak in the indicative mood: "I am saved, " as opposed to the imperative mood we have in Psalm 51: "You save me". A person cannot say with absolute certainty and assurance that she "is" saved unless she is permanently sinless. Justification is not a one time event. We who are "filled with grace" or "full of grace" may yet stumble and fall at any given time. Unlike David, Mary did not have to repent of any venial or mortal sin. Luke reveals Mary was perpetually sinless.

In the same gospel, Elizabeth declares: "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb." This verse is structured to reflect the Protoevangelium in Genesis 3:15. Both the woman and her child are equally blessed above and apart from the rest of humanity by being at complete emnity with Satan and his offspring: original sin. In 11:28, Luke has Jesus allude to his mother as rather blessed for hearing the word of God and keeping it.

Elizabeth's declaration (1:42) is associated with that of the angel Gabriel in the Annunciation. Mary was full of grace by the time the angel appeared to her and acknowledged her permanent state. The angel could just as well have said 'Hail, you who have always been in a state of grace and always will be'. 'Kecharitomene' (perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning endowed with grace) is derived from the Greek root 'charis' which means "grace". Biblically the state of grace may be regarded as a state of sinlessness. Indeed, 'charis' often refers to the strength and ability God bestows on us to help overcome sin. Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it. The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom 5:20-21;2:5), and grace is sufficient (1Cor 1:29). Paul describes grace as an antidote to sin.

The precise greek translation in Luke 1:28 would therefore be, 'Chaire kecharitomene, ' "Hail, full of grace." This expression is consistent with v.30 in which we learn that Mary was already in God's favour or grace by the time the angel appeared to her; as we know since the time God fashioned her soul, which proclaims his glory. The perfect passive participle of 'charitoo' means "endowed with grace" or "enriched with grace" (Eph 1:6). "It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase 'kecharitomene' as completely, perfectly, and enduringly endowed with grace" [Blass and Debrunner, 'Greek Grammar of the New Testament'].

In the angel's greeting, Luke uses a special conjugated form of 'charitoo'. 'Kecharitomene' must be contrasted with Paul's 'echaritosen' (Eph 1:6), which means "He graced" or "bestowed grace". 'Echaritosen' denotes a momentary action brought to pass however full and complete [ibid. p.166] whereas 'kecharitomene', the perfect passive participle designates a completeness with a permanent result. And it denotes a continuance of a completed past action [H.W. Smyth: 'Greek Grammar', pp 108-9; Blass and Debrunner, p.175].

A human being who has been fully and permanently graced from the beginning of her existence has never sinned against God.

Pax vobiscum
J.A.
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