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  #21  
Old 8th May 2010, 02:19 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Ron, I have another lying question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to run it past you anyway.
What of parents lying to thier children about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny?
Since lying is always intrinsically evil, it sounds like a venial sin to me. Is this correct?

Lying is a venial sin, unless there is some additional factor that makes the lie a mortal sin, such as a gravely immoral intention, a second moral object that is gravely disordered, or if the bad consequences gravely outweigh the good consequences.

My opinion is that telling children fictional stories about Santa and the Easter Bunny is not lying. Children do not separate fact from fiction, reality from fantasy. Speaking to children in a manner that is in accord with their way of thinking is not lying.

Even when speaking to adults, telling fictional stories for humour or entertainment is not lying. The only difference is that children do not separate fictional stories from factual ones.
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  #22  
Old 14th August 2010, 12:55 PM
Mark
 
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I had an interesting discussion the other day on the topic of lying as it relates to the illegal immigration issue. I live in a very diverse community with close to half the population immigrants (many illegal in status). Our priest gives a social just sermon nearly every homily and is a champion for the immigrants to the point of making the english congregation often times upset at him for seeminly supporting illegal immigration.

However, in my recent disucssion on this topic, it was mentioned that we have never heard a priest address the lying, fraud and steeling of ID's that illegals have to provide in order to work in the US. It's as if, because they are just looking for a better way of life that these are just "little white lies" that are overlooked by God for a good end.

How is it that our Church remains silent on this aspect of the immigration isssue, when as Ron written much on, it is an intrinsic evil? Can God over look this as the "end justifies the means"? Is our priests silence on this Christian?
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  #23  
Old 14th August 2010, 04:27 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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The end does not justify the means.

[Romans]
{3:8} And should we not do evil, so that good may result? For so we have been slandered, and so some have claimed we said; their condemnation is just.

Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: "It is never permitted to do something which is intrinsically illicit, not even in view of a good result: the end does not justify the means."

Pope Paul VI: "Though it is true that sometimes it is lawful to tolerate a lesser moral evil in order to avoid a greater evil or in order to promote a greater good, it is never lawful, even for the gravest reasons, to do evil that good may come of it (cf. Rom 3: in other words, to intend directly something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order, and which must therefore be judged unworthy of man, even though the intention is to protect or promote the welfare of an individual, of a family or of society in general."

Pope John Paul II: "…the end never justifies the means."

Pontifical Council for the Family: "…one cannot do evil for a good end. The end does not justify the means."

Catechism of the Catholic Church: "The end does not justify the means."

Catechism of the Catholic Church: " 'An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention' (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6). The end does not justify the means."
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  #24  
Old 14th August 2010, 04:29 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Intrinsically evil acts, such as lying and stealing, are never justified by any intended end, nor by any circumstance or consequences.

Immigrating from one nation to another, even illegally, is not intrinsically evil. A person or family, for a grave reason such as dire poverty, can morally imigrate to another nation illegally. Such an act is not intrinsically evil, and so the morality depends on intention and circumstances.

However, lying and stealing cannot be used as a means to that end.
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  #25  
Old 14th August 2010, 05:11 PM
Mark
 
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So it is apparent that illegal immigrants who have to steal a SSN, lie to their employer and commit fraud to work in the US, should not be receiving Holy Euchaist?
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  #26  
Old 14th August 2010, 05:27 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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So it is apparent that illegal immigrants who have to steal a SSN, lie to their employer and commit fraud to work in the US, should not be receiving Holy Euchaist?

No, those sins are not sufficiently grave to make them unable to receive the Eucharist. We are all sinners.

I'm not convinced that all illegal immigrants are committing the same set of sins. Some employers know, or don't care, that their employees are illegal. So the employees don't necessarily lie. Some employers might not ask for a SSN (because they often know that they are hiring illegals). Giving a false SSN is not necessarily stealing, unless they are stealing the identity of some other person.
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  #27  
Old 14th August 2010, 09:40 PM
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Sacredcello Sacredcello is offline
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I have a Mexican lady who cleans my apartment twice per month. She recently told me about St. Toribio Romo who is the patron saint of immigrants such as herself. I do not know whether she is here legally or illegally, and I feel it would be an invasion of her privacy to ask. She cleans all of the apartments in my complex, so that is how I met her. Here is an interesting article about St. Toribio, patron saint of border crossers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toribio_Romo_Gonz%C3%A1lez

I do not ever have anyone ask me whether I am a native U.S. citizen when I do work as an independent contractor (musician), so why should I ask someone else who is working for me in the same capacity (as an independent contractor)?
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