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Old 4th September 2018, 05:15 PM
Hands of Truth Hands of Truth is offline
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Default Conservative Schism

So, it is becoming increasingly apparent and concerning that a sizable number of influential conservative/traditionalist news outlets and commentators are openly calling for the resignation of the pope. This is unprecedented and extreme behavior, because what it seems they are suggesting is that the papacy should be moved in some way by the people, rather than the people being obedient to the papacy. In effect, they are doing what they were arguing against several years ago. They are treating the Church as a though it were a democracy to be moved by the political whim of the people.

My question is whether these people are currently in schism, or is we are still moving toward schism?

I have no problem with the people being concerned and requesting the pope for clarification. I have no problem with calls for accountability and even prosecution of clerics involved in crimes. I draw the line, however, when there is an organized effort to move the church to the will of the people.
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Old 4th September 2018, 07:27 PM
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I agree that it is ok to send concern letters to the Pope asking for clarification or action. However, the attitude must always be in submission to the Holy Pontiff, not demanding, and whether he decides to respond or not is up to him for it is not our role to judge the Pope, only God judges the highest authority (per Unam Sanctam, also Fifth Lateran Council and many more Magisterial documents). Otherwise, when a person is not submissive to the Pope and thinks that he or she knows better than the Pope or that he or she is the "Pope" over the Pope, then that person is schismatic. The Holy Father, regardless of his sins and failings, is called a "Pope" for a reason, so our attitude should be as sons to fathers.

This is Jesus' Church, not the Pope's. The Pope has the task to be His principal representative in this visual world, the Vicar of Christ; therefore, he has a great responsibility in the Universal Church. Since our Church is divinely founded, She should not be treated as worldly matters or powers, such as governments are taken, but since our Church is a spiritual power, we rely in our duty to act in accordance to the faith and trusting that Christ takes care of His Bride, the Church, and knowing that He is truly present during these trials. Keeping always in mind:

[Ephesians]
{6:12} For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, against the directors of this world of darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in high places.

As a Body, when a part of our Body suffers, other parts suffer too, so we can contribute to the healing of the suffering parts each according to our capacities, but not crossing the line (Eph 4:16).
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Old 4th September 2018, 08:13 PM
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Default Messages (locutions) given to Fr. Gobbi regarding the Pope:

http://www.catholicplanet.net/forum/...ead.php?t=5953
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Old 6th September 2018, 05:43 PM
eebee eebee is offline
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Default so many Catholics jumping to conclusions so quickly

I find it very disturbing how many people are assuming that Vigano's letter is an accurate portrayal and that the pope is therefore lying. I've spent many years of my career analyzing research, data analysis, claims and counter-arguments. I read the Vigano letter. Most of his claims are vague. Many of his conclusions appear to be suppositions, or at least he offers no real substantiation. The few specific claims relate to private conversations and, for instance, Pope Benedict can't recall much of it. I'm not necessarily suggesting that Vigano is intentionally misrepresenting things, but neither do I condemn Pope Francis for his lack of a public rebuttal.

Between the discussions about the Vigano letter and unsupported claims about a conservative priest in Santa Barbara being removed from his parish over a homily, I have serious concerns about the state of people's critical thinking skills these days.
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Old 7th September 2018, 02:10 PM
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Having the theological virtues of charity, faith and hope that Christ is not dormant but always working through His Church.

In order to continue doing the will of his Father in the world, Christ works unceasingly through the Church. He operates through his ministers, and hence he remains always the source and wellspring of the unity of their lives.” (Decree - Presbyterorum Ordinis - On The Ministry And Life Of Priests # 14, n 2 – Vatican II).

“Fidelity to Christ cannot be separated from faithfulness to his Church.” (ibid # 14, n 3).

So these hard times serve as purification and reform in the Church as it has also has happened in past times.
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