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Old 15th August 2014, 11:49 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default the great apostasy

I thought we might talk a little about the great apostasy in my eschatology.

I believe that Pope Francis will initiate the great apostasy by teaching truths that are contrary to the views of many conservative Catholics:

1. the Church has the authority to ordain women (solely) to the deaconate

2. non-Catholic Christians, non-Christian believers, and non-believers can be saved without converting

There is nothing wrong with either of these teachings. The problem is that some conservative Catholics have decided that the common opinion of conservatives cannot be wrong. They consider that the correct answer to any theological question is the conservative answer. But when we look at Jesus' teaching, we see that sometimes the right answer is liberal, other times moderate, other times conservative.

Many conservative Catholics will declare that Pope Francis is a heretic, and will break away from the Church as a result.

Then, during the reign of Pope Francis' conservative successor (Pius 13), the Pope will teach truths that are antithetical to the views of liberal Catholics, resulting in another (larger) departure from the Church.
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Old 15th August 2014, 07:21 PM
Keva Keva is offline
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.

One of the last messages to Pedro:


"Something that has been embraced for centuries as truth will be declared false and many will have their faith shaken..."


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Old 15th August 2014, 07:35 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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The most common theological answer to a question is not dogma.
The popular opinion among Catholic laypersons or priests or theologians is not dogma.
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Old 14th September 2014, 02:21 PM
mort mort is offline
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There is no salvation outside of the Church, Ron. We can *speculate* that those through no fault of their own are ignorant of the truth and thus remained outside of the Church both through positive rejection but where ignorance *may* make it to heaven by God's special grace. But the truth is we do not know what happens to such souls and at best commend them to the mercy of God.
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Old 14th September 2014, 02:22 PM
mort mort is offline
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Sorry... Typed that on my phone point is we know of only one way to be saved and being Catholic is *absolutely* necessary.
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Old 14th September 2014, 05:05 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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I disagree. We can know what happens to different categories of persons, among non-Catholics. There are many teachings of the Church on this topic. See my book: Forgiveness and Salvation for Everyone. We can know what the Church teaches.

Of course, we do not know the final destination of particular persons (other than Saints), esp. non-Catholics. We know that a non-Christian or non-believer can still be saved. We just don't know which or how many.
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Old 16th September 2014, 07:11 PM
Damien Damien is offline
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I found this daily meditation of Pope Francis in which he says a few words about the end of times and the apostasy.

“Prohibition against worshipping God is a sign of “general apostasy” It tries to convince Christians to take “a more reasonable and peaceful road”, by obeying “the tenets of worldly powers” who try to reduce religion to “a private matter”. These forces especially do not want God to be worshipped “with trust and fidelity”. “…….


http://w2.vatican.va/content/frances...r-private.html
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Old 17th September 2014, 12:19 PM
Truthseeker Truthseeker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
I thought we might talk a little about the great apostasy in my eschatology.



non-Catholic Christians, non-Christian believers, and non-believers can be saved without converting


Ron if I am not mistaken the current teaching of the Church is that everyone is saved through the catholic church. However, if you are of a different religion/belief you still can be saved. This still happens through the merits of church however, even though one may not be aware of it.
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Old 17th September 2014, 05:38 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
Ron if I am not mistaken the current teaching of the Church is that everyone is saved through the catholic church. However, if you are of a different religion/belief you still can be saved. This still happens through the merits of church however, even though one may not be aware of it.

Yes, that's right. JP2 has a good talk about this here. It's short and worth a read.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo...9950531en.html

"inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ's redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded."
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Old 19th September 2014, 05:56 PM
Keva Keva is offline
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.


Lady of Anguera:

"Division in famous congregation will shaken the faith of the many..."



https://www.google.hr/url?sa=t&rct=j...aJZtbilE rcCg


Begging of great conflicts among cardinals ?




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