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  #11  
Old 30th October 2008, 12:49 PM
ExCelciuS ExCelciuS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRW View Post
It is an honor to make the Sign of the Cross in public; what a way to introduce our faith and love of our Lord to strangers.

Yeah, my pastor was recommend that way too. I will try to do it in public place even sometimes I feel strange and odd.
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  #12  
Old 4th December 2008, 02:34 PM
Jeanne D'Arc
 
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I have a question about marriage in another religion. My so, against my wishes, was married in a Lutheran church. He is, of course, a baptized Catholic, and his wife is a baptized Lutheran. I know that it is a legal marriage according to state law, but is it a valid marriage in the eyes of the Catholic Church?
As a kind of sick-humor aside, the minister who performed the ceremony has recently divorced. Ain't life ironic!!!??
Joan
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  #13  
Old 4th December 2008, 03:03 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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My understanding of Canon Law is that such a marriage would not be valid.
The conditions for a mixed marriage to be valid were not met,
a bishop, priest, or deacon did not perform the ceremony,
the exceptions for a marriage to be valid without an ordained minister present were not met,
other conditions required for a valid marriage, such as the form and place, were not met.

Can. 1108 §1. Only those marriages are valid which are contracted before the local ordinary, pastor, or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and before two witnesses according to the rules expressed in the following canons and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in cann. 144, 1112, §1, 1116, and 1127, §§1-2.
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  #14  
Old 4th December 2008, 08:03 PM
Jeanne D'Arc
 
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Thank you. That's what I thought and in a perverse way I am kind of glad. The times are ugly and relationships are so shaky. It helps when you are on the same page with God.
Joan
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  #15  
Old 28th May 2009, 06:09 AM
TheGiftOfLife
 
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Default Praying to saints

ALL,

I am at a loss for words with one of my protestant friends.

It seems that the words, "Pray to Mary", "Pray to St. Joseph" give the impression that we think Saints and Mary have power.

I know that we all know that we are only ASKING them to PRAY FOR US.

Is it correct to PRAY TO SAINTS?

I would have no problem explicitly saying "ASK THEM TO PRAY FOR YOU" and not saying PRAY TO ... if it will take one more thing off the list of DONTS for Protestants.

I guess what I'm asking is, "Is it really correct and justified to say Pray to St. Theresa?"

If so, I would like the justification behind it since I cant seem to come up with one.

Thanks
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  #16  
Old 28th May 2009, 06:50 AM
ExCelciuS ExCelciuS is offline
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Hello TheGiftOfLife,

This is my humble opinion about pray to Saints or Mary. Saints are like close friends of God and Mary is more than that. So imagine, this condition "A" is praying to Saints, if you were God, and then your close friends who is Saints is trying to help "A" to negotiate "A's" problem with God, isn't it okay? I think it is Okay. Remember when Abraham negotiate with God in order to save Lot from destruction at Sodom. Abraham was negotiate or talking or praying or do something to God to help someone's problem. If they(protestants) say, God know everything and He must be know what Abraham thinks. If that is, why God still make conversation with Abraham? If God knows everything, he even don't need anything or anyone, and decide anything on his Own will. But God is not like that, God knew everything and decide everything, but He isn't somewhat like "dictator". He is full of wisdom, knowledge and love and mercy. This analogue is kinda like when we are praying to Saints, because I think, Saints are like close friends of God.

How if your close friend negotiate with you, talking with you about for example to ease someone's burden. Of course the one who decide and have power is God, but the conversation between your close friend and you, it has some "weight" in your mind doesn't it? And this "weight" is what we are talking about.

That is my humble opinion for praying to Saints.

And my humble opinion for praying to Mary is kinda like the above, but the difference is Mary is more than "a close friend of God", She's more than that in God's eyes, Mary is greater than Saints. See quote below from the bible when Mary is asking Jesus at the wedding held at Cana (John 2:1-12).

Quote:
[John 2-1:12]
{2:1} And on the third day, a wedding was held in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
{2:2} Now Jesus was also invited to the wedding, with his disciples.
{2:3} And when the wine was failing, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
{2:4} And Jesus said to her: “What is that to me and to you, woman? My hour has not yet arrived.”
{2:5} His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

{2:6} Now in that place, there were six stone water jars, for the purification ritual of the Jews, containing two or three measures each.

{2:7} Jesus said to them, “Fill the water jars with water.” And they filled them to the very top.
{2:8} And Jesus said to them, “Now draw from it, and carry it to the chief steward of the feast.” And they took it to him.
{2:9} Then, when the chief steward had tasted the water made into wine, since he did not know where it was from, for only the servants who had drawn the water knew, the chief steward called the groom,


{2:10} and he said to him: “Every man offers the good wine first, and then, when they have become inebriated, he offers what is worse. But you have kept the good wine until now.”
{2:11} This was the beginning of the signs that Jesus accomplished in Cana of Galilee, and it manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him.
{2:12} After this, he descended to Capernaum, with his mother and his brothers and his disciples, but they did not remain there for many days.


Consider what I made bold in the above quote.

Mary was asking for Jesus to solve the problem that was their wine was failing and they have no wine anymore, but Jesus replied His hour was not yet arrived. Mary didn't know when the hour will come, but she has said “Do whatever he tells you.”(John 2:5) to the servant, and then what the servant action? The servant wait for Jesus command. It is like Mary has something that made Jesus do what She says even at that time She didn't know when the hour will come and it is like She push the hour to come now(at that time) and Jesus do it(a request from Her mother who is Mary).

So the conclusion is, Mary is greater than Saints, and pray to Mary or Saints, I think, is to add more weight to our prayer besides our own faith in the prayer.

This is just my humble opinion, maybe other member has their opinion too, and can discuss it here, and at the final we have Ron, that is our teacher here.

Cheers.
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Last edited by ExCelciuS : 28th May 2009 at 07:15 AM.
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  #17  
Old 28th May 2009, 02:27 PM
TheGiftOfLife
 
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Excelcius,
Thank you so much for your example but I guess I needed to make myself more clear.

I understand completelty the concept of interceeding and I fully agree and I know all the reasons behind why we believe in it.

However, the issue I am having is with the words that we "PRAY TO" saints. I am wondering if this is wrong to say. Maybe we should only say we "ASK SAINTS TO PRAY FOR US" to make it more clear to non-Catholics.

To say that we PRAY TO saints given the impression that we put them before God.

What I am looking for is a justification for saying the words "PRAY TO". How is that justified.

It seems that the answer lies in the definition of to Pray.

pray  /preɪ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [prey] Show IPA
–verb (used with object) 1. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
2. to offer (a prayer).
3. to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
4. to make earnest petition to (a person).
5. to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.
6. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to God or to an object of worship.
7. to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer.

I guess that I need to explain the defnition of pray to the protestants.
I think I just answered my own question - thanks
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  #18  
Old 28th May 2009, 02:55 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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The phrase 'pray to' has more than one meaning. When applied to God it refers to an act of worship whereby we speak to God as to our ultimate end. When applied to Angels and Saints in Heaven, it refers to an act of veneration whereby we speak to those who are closest to God (who have the beatific vision of God), as mediators between us and our final end, God.

The early Church NEVER prayed to Mary or Joseph or any Saint while they were still alive on this earth, but only after they entered into Heaven.
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  #19  
Old 28th May 2009, 04:04 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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Yes, we ask the Saints to pray for us and with us, as Jesus says, where there are more than one in My Name, I'm present.

IMHO, every time we pray to the Saints, we ARE praying to God (not to the Saint as an end, but TO God) that's why we use the word 'pray' because they are already united with God in Heaven. In other words, they are One in Heaven; so we pray to God thru the Saints. It's different than asking a living person here on earth to pray for us or with us, that's why we 'ask' somebody here on earth for prayers, but the Saints are in Heaven in union with God, so we use the word 'pray'.

So you can tell your Protestant friend, that every time we 'pray' to the Saints, we humbly pray to God, it's not like a separate thing or that we put the Saints above or before God or as an end, not at all; but we use the word 'pray' because God and the Saints are united, the fellowship of the Kingdom of God in Heaven is 'One'.
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  #20  
Old 28th May 2009, 04:35 PM
js1975 js1975 is offline
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Another point that is helpful is to review the 'Hail Mary'. It is made of two parts of scripture, followed by asking Mary to pray for us.

-jay
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2cor 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, most beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God.
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