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  #1  
Old 10th May 2013, 04:14 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Is Creation fallen?

Is Creation, other than mankind, in a fallen state? If so, why, and when did the fall of Creation occur?
my post on the subject:
http://wp.me/pZTQW-Kv
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Old 10th May 2013, 05:10 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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Interesting article Ron.

God created the world for man, not the other way around. God created a Paradise, an immaculate place fitting for immaculate persons such as the first men, Adam and Eve (before the fall); however, since Adam and Eve sinned, they became in a fallen state; therefore, they were sent to a fallen world where there is corruption, decay and death. It would be unfitting for us, sinners, to be living in an immaculate place, it would be like sinners already living in Paradise.

We are in a fallen earth because plants and animals also do deteriorate and die. This is the consequence or repercussion of man’s original sin.

{3:17} Yet truly, to Adam, he said: “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, from which I instructed you that you should not eat, cursed is the land that you work. In hardship shall you eat from it, all the days of your life.
{3:18} Thorns and thistles shall it produce for you, and you shall eat the plants of the earth.
{3:19} By the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, until you return to the earth from which you were taken. For dust you are, and unto dust you shall return
.”

Yes, there are beautiful places in this world, but they are mere sparks of what the New Earth will be like.

[John]
{8:23} And he said to them: “You are from below. I am from above. You are of this world. I am not of this world”.

If Jesus says “I’m not of this world”, it is because He dislikes this world, a world of sin and death where He wants to rescue us from. God is Perfection, not imperfection.

{18:36} Jesus responded: “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my ministers would certainly strive so that I would not be handed over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not now from here.”

Last edited by Brother : 10th May 2013 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 10th May 2013, 05:40 PM
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By reading Jimmy Akin's article, here comes a question: "What about the animals, including dinosaurs that lived before Adam and Eve?, they did die before Adam and Eve were created".

Here is another hypothesis:

Since Adam and Eve were expelled from Paradise by God (Gen 3:23-24) to this corrupted earth, it is possible that this earth, fitting for us fallen creatures, already contained fallen creatures and already past deceased dinosaurs. There is no time limit for God, or timeframe limits for God. God is Eternal so He knows all, past present and future events.

In other words, Adam and Eve were placed by God on this earth in a place and time where the dinosaurs and past creatures have already existed and deceased. Adam and Eve were not placed at the beginning of this earth, but at a time where a lot of things have already occurred; therefore, in our manner of understand time, billions of years of this earth have already passed when Adam and Eve where put here by God from another "dimension" (for lack of a better word) of timeframe which was Paradise.

Last edited by Brother : 10th May 2013 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 10th May 2013, 08:22 PM
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Quoted from Akin’s article:

Quote:

Second, there is the fact that God gives Adam and Eve permission to eat the various fruits found in the Garden of Eden (except for one). Thus, Adam and Eve needed food.

I would say, no. I would not go to that conclusion. After Jesus resurrected with a Glorified Body, He also did eat with His Apostles and among other people. Does this mean that Jesus “needed” food? No, because there is no death after His resurrection, meaning that He will not die again. Thinking the contrary would be like saying that Jesus would die again if He doesn’t eat. Therefore, when God told Adam and Eve to eat from the fruits of Paradise (except one), it was most likely for their enjoyment and pleasure, not as a need.

It is in this fallen world that we need food to survive, and it can also be for our enjoyment, of course (because if all things taste bad we would not enjoy eating). God did not take away all of the enjoyments meant for us despite the Fall, it has been diminished because hardship and death was added to us as punishment for our sins.

One needs to notice that, even before the Fall the roles of Adam and Eve were alredy set by God. Adam was called to be happy leading in Paradise, laboring the land but with ease in fellowship with God with her wife Eve (Gen 2:5) (2:15). Yes, Adam was already created with the purpose of ‘laboring’ on Paradise, “to work the land”, but not with hardship, or as a type of labor known to us, but a ‘labor’ with enjoyment. Eve was called to be happy helping Adam’s ‘works’ on Paraside and also bearing children with ease in fellowship with God with her husband (2:18 ). However, after the Fall, pain and hardship was added to their specific roles as punishments (Gen 3: 16-17).

Last edited by Brother : 10th May 2013 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 10th May 2013, 09:53 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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I agree that Adam and Eve did not need food.

Suppose that Adam and Eve needed food. What would happen if they did not eat? Would they suffer from hunger pains, waste away, and then starve to death? All of those consequences of not eating are consequences of the Fall. So before the Fall, they did not need to eat.
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Old 11th May 2013, 01:06 PM
feyfifer feyfifer is offline
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Quote:
Since I place Adam and Eve’s lives about 50 to 70 thousand years ago,. . .

Would you expound on that..Ron, please...your rationale?

I thought the biblical timeline extended backwards only 4 to 7 thousand years BC!
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Old 11th May 2013, 01:59 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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See my post on the subject

http://ronconte.wordpress.com/2012/0...ith-evolution/
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Old 6th October 2013, 11:39 PM
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Ron in your article you state that Creation fell because of the sin of angels and the sin of Adam and Eve beyond time and place. If so where were the bodies of Adam and Eve materially when they fell from Grace? On Earth or Paradise or both? If they were in Paradise how did they come to be on Earth? It looks as if they could be in two "places" at the same time. Could you please clarify this to me?
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Old 8th October 2013, 04:14 PM
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Also, assuming from your article, Earth must have been created before the creation of angels and the fall of some of them. God cannot create something corrupt, so if creation fell, it must have existed before the fall of angels. Of course such notion is relative since Paradise (without the beatific vision) is beyond time and place.

It's interesting to notice the parallel here between the fallen angels and the fallen man. After the fall, devils are sent into a spiritual realm fitting for their angelic nature, man was sent into a material physical world fitting for his body and soul.

Ron, how to concile the fact that the "serpent" tempted man and woman in Paradise? If the serpent represents satan symbolically, how could he tempt both of them in a place he was long thrown out of?
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Last edited by Rob : 8th October 2013 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 8th October 2013, 05:15 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Also, assuming from your article, Earth must have been created before the creation of angels and the fall of some of them. God cannot create something corrupt, so if creation fell, it must have existed before the fall of angels. Of course such notion is relative since Paradise (without the beatific vision) is beyond time and place.

It's interesting to notice the parallel here between the fallen angels and the fallen man. After the fall, devils are sent into a spiritual realm fitting for their angelic nature, man was sent into a material physical world fitting for his body and soul.

Ron, how to concile the fact that the "serpent" tempted man and woman in Paradise? If the serpent represents satan symbolically, how could he tempt both of them in a place he was long thrown out of?

When God created the Angels, they were not in the Heaven of the Beatific Vision, but within Creation. God created the material universe and the angels at the same time. The Angels interacted with the material universe, since they have some role in assisting God with His Providence.

The fall of some angels occurred before the creation of the earth, in my view, for Scripture says: "But the earth was empty and unoccupied, and darknesses were over the face of the abyss". My interpretation is that the darknesses (plural) were fallen angels.

The fallen angels were not thrown out of paradise; the paradise of Adam and Eve was created particularly for them at that time.

My view is that God created the earth by His providence from existing matter, after he created the material beginning of the universe out of nothing.

However, I don't see why God can't create a material universe that is fallen, since He creates the souls of fallen human persons (souls which are fallen in the sense that they are created lacking sanctifying grace). God could have created matter with "corruption" as part of His plan to eventually bring the universe to a non-corrupt state, just as He creates the souls of fallen human persons, as part of His plan to bring each of us to eternal freedom from corruption.
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