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Old 8th October 2009, 12:27 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default 1 Thessalonians 4

{4:1} Therefore, concerning other things, brothers, we ask and beg you, in the Lord Jesus, that, just as you have received from us the way in which you ought to walk and to please God, so also may you walk, in order that you may abound all the more.

Paul says 'brothers' addressing the ordained men who lead the church at Thessalonia, and by addressing the leaders he thereby addresses the whole church in that city.

We should 'abound all the more' by continuing to learn the Faith ever better, and by increasing in love, prayer, self-denial, and works of mercy.

{4:2} For you know what precepts I have given to you through the Lord Jesus.

The precepts of the Lord were given to the Thessalonians not only by Paul, but by other disciples of Christ, and by the grace of God in the Spirit.

{4:3} For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from fornication,

Here, fornication is being used broadly, to refer to all sexual sins. Similarly, in the ten commandments, when it says 'thou shalt not commit adultery', the specific meaning prohibits adultery, but by extention, more generally, that commandment prohibits all sexual sins.

{4:4} that each one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor,

The term 'vessel' is being used to refer to the sexual faculty, which (as is true for the whole body and the whole person) is a good created by God.

{4:5} not in passions of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God,

So many Catholics have fallen into this type of sin, even those who are practicing Catholics, because of the influence of 'the Gentiles', i.e. secular society. Even within marriage, the use of the sexual faculty must be with honor toward God, neighbor, self, and in sanctification. For Christ raised natural marriage to the level of a Sacrament. God is in the bedroom.

{4:6} and that no one should overwhelm or circumvent his brother in business. For the Lord is the vindicator of all these things, just as we have preached and testified to you.

God is in the boardroom. There are no exceptions to the moral law for the marital bedroom, nor for the workplace. And no one can justify an immoral act on the grounds that the intention is good, or that the end is good. Business is under the moral law.

{4:11} to choose work that allows you to be tranquil, and to carry out your business and to do your work with your own hands, just as we have instructed you,
{4:12} and to walk honestly with those who are outside, and to desire nothing belonging to another.

Not every means to earn a living is moral, and not every moral means to earn a living is fitting to a tranquil Christian life. Choose a path even in the workplace that will best allow you to do the will of God.

{4:15} For we say this to you, in the Word of the Lord: that we who are alive, who remain until the return of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
{4:16} For the Lord himself, with a command and with the voice of an Archangel and with a trumpet of God, shall descend from heaven. And the dead, who are in Christ, shall rise up first.
{4:17} Next, we who are alive, who are remaining, shall be taken up quickly together with them into the clouds to meet Christ in the air. And in this way, we shall be with the Lord always.

In the distant future, when Christ returns for Judgment and the general resurrection, those who are still alive on earth do not die and then immediately rise. Instead they receive the benefits of the Resurrection without dying and rising; they do not 'fall asleep' in death.

After the general resurrection, all the Just are assumed into Heaven.
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Old 8th October 2009, 01:18 PM
sammy sammy is offline
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4:1 Therefore, concerning other things, brothers, we ask and beg you, in the Lord Jesus, that, just as you have received from us the way in which you ought to walk and to please God, so also may you walk, in order that you may abound all the more.

After being shown the way, each person has to choose to walk along this path.

4:10 For indeed, you act in this way with all the brothers in all of Macedonia. But we petition you, brothers, so that you may abound all the more.

We should strive for perfection even as God is perfect, as Mary our model.

4:11 to choose work that allows you to be tranquil,...

This can also apply to infant disciples more than mature disciples in that early on, the influences of the world (work) has a greater effect on tranquility than later along the path of sactification, when we should be more mature as disciples and are therefore tranquil no matter the work.

4:12 and to walk honestly with those who are outside,...

We must love the non-Catholic, non-Christian.
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Old 16th May 2012, 06:32 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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{4:16} For the Lord himself, with a command and with the voice of an Archangel and with a trumpet of God, shall descend from heaven. And the dead, who are in Christ, shall rise up first.

some thinks this is the first resurrection. Because the dead, who are in Christ, shall rise up first.

Rev. 20:5
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.
This is the first resurrection.

But the verse in Thessalonian clearly says it is the end ; there are still who are alive at that time.

{4:15} For we say this to you, in the Word of the Lord: that we who are alive, who remain until the return of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
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Old 16th May 2012, 08:30 AM
feyfifer feyfifer is offline
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Ron, is'nt the ninth command somewhat superfluous given that the sixth commandment already prohibits illicit sex? ....or are we to truly appreciate the import of the institution of marriage ..because of the additional ninth commandment?

Quote:
Even within marriage, the use of the sexual faculty must be with honor toward God, neighbor, self, and in sanctification. For Christ raised natural marriage to the level of a Sacrament. God is in the bedroom.


Is the sexual act capable of being committed without any shame at all?..I mean, to the extent that it is possible for us to make ourselves aware that God is present... God who is absolute purity and goodness?
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Old 16th May 2012, 11:13 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by feyfifer View Post
Ron, is'nt the ninth command somewhat superfluous given that the sixth commandment already prohibits illicit sex? ....or are we to truly appreciate the import of the institution of marriage ..because of the additional ninth commandment?

Is the sexual act capable of being committed without any shame at all?..I mean, to the extent that it is possible for us to make ourselves aware that God is present... God who is absolute purity and goodness?

The ninth commandment not only prohibits the sexual coveting of lust, but also any other type of coveting related to persons. If you covet your neighbor’s wife by treating her as your close friend, without lust, this act still harms the marriage relationship of your neighbor with his wife, and so it is inordinate and sinful. Or if you covet your neighbor’s children by treating them as if they were your children, this harms the parent-child relationship of your neighbor. And the same is true for the other persons of your neighbor’s household. There is a proper order to the relationships between human persons, in the family, in the Church, and in society. Any sin against this proper order is an offense against the true worship of God, who created and ordered humanity according to His own good will.

There are three types of shame:
1. our realization of unworthiness due to sin
2. due to imperfection
3. due to our finiteness before an infinite God

We should avoid sin, as much as possible in this life, and so we should have little of the first type of shame. But if we sin, our response to grace should give us the shame appropriate to our sins. We should never be without the second type of shame in this life. We will never be without the third type of shame in the next life.
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Old 21st May 2012, 01:47 PM
feyfifer feyfifer is offline
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I can see how 1) and 2) fit, Ron..... but 3)?......why do we need to feel shame for being created as we are...and before the creator who created us so?.....Shame is a negative feeling,(I'm thinking)...would that persist in the next life, even if we are in heaven?
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Old 21st May 2012, 02:38 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by feyfifer View Post
I can see how 1) and 2) fit, Ron..... but 3)?......why do we need to feel shame for being created as we are...and before the creator who created us so?.....Shame is a negative feeling,(I'm thinking)...would that persist in the next life, even if we are in heaven?

Shame is not always a negative feeling. The three types of shame agree with the three types of evil:
1. moral evil
2. physical evil (harm, disorder, suffering)
3. metaphysical evil: the limited goodness in anything that is finite.
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Old 23rd May 2012, 05:29 AM
feyfifer feyfifer is offline
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Oh yes,..that is a brilliant thought Ron,...yes, the 3rd type of shame would fit in there..in the gap between the limit of our goodness, and the extents of unlimited goodness...!
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