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Old 21st December 2012, 03:57 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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Default Nativity donkeys and cattle are a myth, says Pope

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With just over a month to go before Christmas, the Pope has declared that the presence of animals like cattle and donkeys in traditional Nativity scenes is based on little more than a myth.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...says-Pope.html


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Rome: As Christians around the world start thinking about setting up nativity scenes for Christmas, the Pope has pointed out that the ox and the donkey – regular fixtures around the manger – are latter-day inventions nowhere to be seen in the gospels

http://www.smh.com.au/world/pope-dec...121-29owd.html

According to the above sources, our Holy Father says in his newest book "Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives" that "In the Gospels there is no mention of animals," therefore, it is just a myth.

I haven’t read that book yet, however, if it's true, I may disagree with the Pope in this aspect. Notice that this is just a book of private theology of the Holy Father and even he has said that we are free to disagree in his earlier books. This is not a work of his from the Magisterium.

Now, even though it is true that there is no mention of ox or/and donkey in the Gospels, I disagree for the following reasons:

There is mention of mention of ox and donkey in Holy Scriptures regarding this moment:

[Isaiah]
{1:3} An ox knows his owner, and a donkey knows the manger of his lord, but Israel has not known me, and my people have not understood.


I believe this prophecy was fulfilled at the time Christ came.

Also, even though true private revelations are not necessary for salvation and are not works of the Magisterum, if the Church approves them as True coming from God and from Heaven, they can shed some light in things that may not seem clear enough; otherwise, if it is useless at all, why would God, really God from Heaven bother revelating something to His people?:

Bl. Catherine Emmerich says she has seen the following:

"Joseph and Mary were standing by the Crib and gazing with emotion upon the Infant Jesus, when suddenly the ass fell upon its knees and lowered its head to the ground. Mary and Joseph shed tears."

She also said regarding St. Paola following this tradition:

"Upon the wall over this crib, hung a banner upon which was represented the ass with its head turned toward the crib. It was embroidered in colors, and the hair made of thread, so natural that it looked like real hair. Above the crib was a hole in which a star was fastened. I saw that the Child Jesus often appeared here to St. Paula and her daughter."

--The Lowly Life And Bitter Passion Of Our Lord Jesus Christ

Also, St. Bridgette of Sweeden, Patron Saint of Europe, clearly says in page 25 of the book Revelations of St. Bridgette that she saw a vision of the Nativity where there were an ox and a donkey.

I don't have the book in my hands now, but I may bring the quote when I have the opportunity.

There are good sources that indicate the contrary to what the Pope allegedly said.

Has anyone read the book?... perhaps the press is exaggerating what the Pope said or are taking it out of context? Anyhow, I'm purchasing the book today.

By the way, by no means I'm saying that the Pope books is "bad", not at all, I'm saying that the Pope might be mistaken in this point, but the rest of the book can be an excellent source of enlightment and salvation.

Last edited by Brother : 21st December 2012 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 21st December 2012, 04:13 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quotes from the book:

The manger, as we have seen, indicates animals, who come to it for their food. In the Gospel there is no reference to animals at this point. But prayerful reflection, reading Old and New Testaments in the light of one another, filled this lacuna at a very early stage by pointing to Is 1:3: “The ox knows its owner, and the ass its master’s crib; but Israel does not know, my people does not understand.”

"No representation of the crib is complete without the ox and the ass."

Pope Benedict XVI (2012-11-21). Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives Kindle Edition.

The mass media are misrepresenting the contents of the book.
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Old 21st December 2012, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Quotes from the book:

The manger, as we have seen, indicates animals, who come to it for their food. In the Gospel there is no reference to animals at this point. But prayerful reflection, reading Old and New Testaments in the light of one another, filled this lacuna at a very early stage by pointing to Is 1:3: “The ox knows its owner, and the ass its master’s crib; but Israel does not know, my people does not understand.”

"No representation of the crib is complete without the ox and the ass."

Pope Benedict XVI (2012-11-21). Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives Kindle Edition.

The mass media are misrepresenting the contents of the book.

Thank you Ron, the mass media misrepresenting the Pope's words once again.
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Old 21st December 2012, 07:20 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Thank you Ron, the mass media misrepresenting the Pope's words once again.

One internet site went so far as to proclaim: "Pope cancels Christmas". They don't care if what they say is true or false. They don't care how much harm their words may do.
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Old 21st December 2012, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Brother View Post




Now, even though it is true that there is no mention of ox or/and donkey in the Gospels, I disagree for the following reasons:

There is mention of mention of ox and donkey in Holy Scriptures regarding this moment:

[Isaiah]
{1:3} An ox knows his owner, and a donkey knows the manger of his lord, but Israel has not known me, and my people have not understood.


I believe this prophecy was fulfilled at the time Christ came.


Very strong argument and sprititual as well. Thanks Brother.
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Old 24th December 2012, 03:16 AM
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According to Anne Catherine Emmerich, there was only the donkey that Mary had ridden there present.
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Old 24th December 2012, 03:55 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Bl. Emmerich: "Today I saw a very touching scene in the cave. Joseph and Mary were standing by the Crib, looking at the Infant Jesus with great devotion, when the donkey threw himself suddenly on his knees and bent his head down to the ground. Mary and Joseph wept."
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Old 27th December 2012, 04:54 PM
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St. Bridget of Sweden: "When I was at the crib of Bethlehem, I beheld a most beautiful Virgin with child, in a white mantle and tunic, evidently soon about to be delivered. With her was a most venerable old man, and they had an ox and an ass. When they entered the cave, the old man tied the ox and the ass to the crib...

Then she arose with the Child in her arms, and both together, that is, she and Joseph, laid Him in the manger, and kneeling, adore Him with immense joy and gladness."
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Old 28th December 2012, 02:48 AM
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I remember that one to. I would only offer that it wouldn't make much sense for an ox to be there. The donkey, because she (the Blessed Virgin) rode it there. What is important is the birth of the Saviour.
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Old 28th December 2012, 03:23 PM
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I would only offer that it wouldn't make much sense for an ox to be there.

Apparently, they brought with them the ox as well "they had an ox and an ass". Also, if they were in a cave looking stable, it makes sense. Christ was placed on a manger and a manger is a feeder of carved stone, wood, or metal construction used to hold food for animals.

Yes, the most important thing is the birth of our Saviour; however, it is also important to me to know the truth of the conditions and details of how our Saviour was born, I would say very important. If one of those animals kneeled, I would like to know.
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