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Old 30th July 2010, 09:09 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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Ron. I don't know if this is right there is a debate challenge on us in english with some who feign catholiscism.

here is the challenge:

1. That Election by Grace unto Salvation is not based upon God's foreknowledge of what men would do, but based solely upon God's good pleasure and secret will alone. (This I will affirm by appealing to St.Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, and other possible Catholic resources, as references.)
2. That God is Just in Predestinating some unto Salvation.
3. That the two statements above is in conformity with the Catholic teaching. (This I will affirm by appealing to St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, and other possible Catholic resources, as references.)
4. That God reprobates people not according to anything in the man reprobated, but on God's secret will alone. That this divine reprobation, is not the cause of sin in the person reprobated, but the cause of the abandonment of God (or God's passing over the non-elect, leaving them in their own sinful passions). And most importantly, that this Reprobation does not destroy God's Justice. (This I will affirm by appealing to St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, and other possible Catholic resources, a references.)
5. That man has a "free-will" but it is so entirely at the disposal of our Sovereign God, that He turns or inclines them whenever and wherever He pleases. (This I will affirm by appealing to St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, and other possible Catholic resources, as references.)
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Old 30th July 2010, 12:06 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Those five points together constitute a severe heresy, denying the role of free will in salvation, and making God appear to be unjust. Although the author states that God is just, he nevertheless proposes that God chooses to send some persons to Hell, and other persons to Heaven, regardless of their free will and their sins.

It is as if God arbitrarily chooses who is saved and who is punished forever in Hell. The author says that God's choice is based on His secret will, but essentially he proposes no basis for the choice, therefore it is arbitrary.

The teachings of Catholicism are based on Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium. But the author only bases his claims on his own interpretation of Augustine and Aquinas, and he contradicts the teachings of the Council of Trent:

The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God.

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

CANON VI.-If any one saith, that it is not in man's power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil God worketh as well as those that are good, not permissively only, but properly, and of Himself, in such wise that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul; let him be anathema.

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXII.-If any one saith, that the justified, either is able to persevere, without the special help of God, in the justice received; or that, with that help, he is not able; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

CANON XXV.-If any one saith, that, in every good work, the just sins venially at least, or--which is more intolerable still--mortally, and consequently deserves eternal punishments; and that for this cause only he is not damned, that God does not impute those works unto damnation; let him be anathema.

CANON XXVI.-If any one saith, that the just ought not, for their good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God, through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if so be that they persevere to the end in well doing and in keeping the divine commandments; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXI.-If any one saith, that the justified sins when he performs good works with a view to an eternal recompense; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,--if so be, however, that he depart in grace,--and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/trentall.html
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Old 30th July 2010, 12:31 PM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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thank you Ron.
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