CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group  

Go Back   CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group > Catholic Continuing Education > Catholic blogs
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 3rd March 2013, 01:55 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,564
Default On Popes and Heresy

Two new blog posts:

Can a Pope Ever Be a Heretic?

What If A Heretic Were Elected Pope?
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 6th March 2013, 02:47 PM
Brother Brother is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,751
Default

It's interesting that through the history of our Church, the vast majority of the Popes have been Saintly - holy Popes; however, there have been some who have not been that holy, and even sinful Popes. Some Popes have erred on personal opinions and/or in their temporal authority. Nevertheless, none of them have ever taught something contrary to Divine teaching, something contrary to Dogmas. No Pope has ever been heretic, not even the most sinful of the Popes. This also fulfills what Jesus said to Peter and the Apostles that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 6th March 2013, 03:07 PM
Brother Brother is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,751
Default Why is that there have been some sinful Popes?

It's up to the person.

We all have free will and God respects that in all of us, and there can be the case where some men have been elected without proper discernment, or against God's will, but once elected, or coronated in the Church, that man becomes a valid Pope, and that elected Pope does not necessarily means that he will be sinful, after that, he could become either good or bad, it is up to the person. Similar to marriage, a person can choose a spouse that may not be appropriate for a Christian marriage, or against God's will, but during marriage, it could go well (even though it can be harder if a person does not follow God's voice) or not according to the conversion, or return to God, of the couple. It's all up to us to cooperate with God's graces.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 7th March 2013, 10:57 PM
Rob Rob is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sicily, Italy
Posts: 966
Default

Ron,

When there is no pope, such as currently, can we say that there is no Infallible Sacred Magisterium? Bishops can teach infallibly in the Ordinary Universal Magisterium "in communion with the pope" but does it mean there has to be a living pope at the time of the teaching? or can it be a past pope?
__________________
For to me, to live is Christ; and to die is gain (Phil 1:21)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 8th March 2013, 04:56 AM
JonDavid JonDavid is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 195
Default Let Me Take A Shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Ron,

When there is no pope, such as currently, can we say that there is no Infallible Sacred Magisterium? Bishops can teach infallibly in the Ordinary Universal Magisterium "in communion with the pope" but does it mean there has to be a living pope at the time of the teaching? or can it be a past pope?

Yes, there needs to be a Pope. Ther is no such thing as a "Past or Retired".Pope. When a Pope resigns like Benidict , he no longer a Pope period.

Last edited by JonDavid : 8th March 2013 at 06:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 8th March 2013, 12:54 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,564
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Ron,

When there is no pope, such as currently, can we say that there is no Infallible Sacred Magisterium? Bishops can teach infallibly in the Ordinary Universal Magisterium "in communion with the pope" but does it mean there has to be a living pope at the time of the teaching? or can it be a past pope?

It can be a past Pope.

With Conciliar Infallibility, there must be a living reigning Pope who is the head of the Council. Otherwise, an Ecumenical Council does not exist. If the Pope dies during a Council, it then ceases to be an Ecumenical Council and cannot teach infallibly.

But the ordinary and universal Magisterium (OUM) is based on the teaching of individual Bishops dispersed through the world, and the teaching of the Pope, or of successive Bishops and successive Popes. So as long as one or more past Popes taught a doctrine, the Bishops can participate in the OUM by teaching that doctrine. It may even be the case that a doctrine becomes infallible under the OUM while the Church is between Popes (though this is unlikely).
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 8th March 2013, 12:55 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,564
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonDavid View Post
Yes, there needs to be a Pope. Ther is no such thing as a "Past or Retired".Pope. When a Pope resigns like Benidict , he no longer a Pope period.

It's true that a resigned Pope is no long a Pope at all.

The OUM is exercised over time, even over a long period of time, so the teachings of past Popes are included.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 8th March 2013, 02:50 PM
Rob Rob is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sicily, Italy
Posts: 966
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
It may even be the case that a doctrine becomes infallible under the OUM while the Church is between Popes (though this is unlikely).

Yes that is exactly the point I was trying to get clear. But again I see that without a pope there is no OUM. So bishops can teach but they are still participating in that charism and never the source of it.
__________________
For to me, to live is Christ; and to die is gain (Phil 1:21)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 8th March 2013, 04:31 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,564
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Yes that is exactly the point I was trying to get clear. But again I see that without a pope there is no OUM. So bishops can teach but they are still participating in that charism and never the source of it.

Vatican II taught that the individual Bishops exercise the authentic Magisterium by virtue of their ordination to the episcopal degree. They are the successors to the Apostles, so they are, in part, a source of Catholic teaching. As for infallibility, the OUM and Conciliar infallibility each proceed partly from the Bishops and partly from the Pope.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 4th June 2014, 03:53 PM
Brother Brother is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,751
Default

[Matthew]
{16:18} And I say to you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.

If the Pope would fall into heresy, or err on required belief teachings in order to save our souls, the Pope would disorient us in our road to salvation and God, Who has entrust us as His Vicar, as His representative here on earth and as our shepherd (John 21: 15 - 17) - [It is obvious that Peter was meant to have successors, since he would live for only a limited time and would not be on this earth until the end of time], God would be the One to blame; therefore, this simply cannot happen. God does not permit to happen because He has said that the gates of Hell will not prevail on His Church, if the Pope would commit the sin of heresy, then the gates of Hell would have prevailed.
__________________
John 3:27; John 15:5; Matthew 19:26
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.