CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group  

Go Back   CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group > Catholic Continuing Education > Teaching Series - dogmatic theology
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old 1st July 2007, 07:18 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,586
Default Limbo of Hell

The Limbo of Hell

Just as Purgatory has a fringe at its upper most 'level', so also does Hell have a fringe at its upper most level.

Quote:
But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains. -- Council of Florence

The upper level of Hell is where those adults are sent who commit and fail to repent from the mortal sin of omission of failing to find sanctifying grace into their adult life, either by a formal Baptism, or by a mystical Baptism (e.g. Baptism of desire or other non-formal Baptism). They are punished less then those who committed and failed to repent from actual mortal sins of comission or other actual mortal sins of omission.

This situation is like the servant who hid his talent.

[Matthew]
{25:24} Then he who had received one talent, approaching, said: ‘Lord, I know that you are a hard man. You reap where you have not sown, and gather where you have not scattered.
{25:25} And so, being afraid, I went out and hid your talent in the earth. Behold, you have what is yours.’
{25:26} But his lord said to him in response: ‘You evil and lazy servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered.
{25:27} Therefore, you should have deposited my money with the bankers, and then, at my arrival, at least I would have received what is mine with interest.
{25:28} And so, take the talent away from him and give it the one who has ten talents.
{25:29} For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he shall have in abundance. But from him who has not, even what he seems to have, shall be taken away.
{25:30} And cast that useless servant into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

He is sent into Hell because of his uselessness (in that he does not have sanctifying grace) and due to his own laziness.

Although this part of Hell has been called the limbo of the infants, it is certain that no prenatals or infants or young children are there, because they cannot be expected at such a young age to acheive Baptism in the usual ways, and because their deaths unite them with Christ dying on the Cross, the source of our salvation.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 2nd July 2007, 12:00 PM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,657
Default Hell as the antithesis of Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
[Matthew]
{25:41} Then he shall also say, to those who will be on his left: ‘Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.'

Heaven was prepared for us by Christ and is fitting for us. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. Those who go to Hell are in a strange place, not fit for human persons.

Hell is beyond ordinary place and time. However, it is not Eternity. To dwell in Eternity, one must dwell with God, who is Eternity. Nothing is truly and completely eternal except God, who alone has always existed.

Hell is not the timelessness of Heaven. It has its own kind of time, in which its residents are trapped forever. Hell is eternal in the sense of neverending, but not eternal in the sense of timelessness. This is one of the sufferings of Hell. So, when they suffer, because it is within time, their sufferings are even changing. It is not a constant suffering of one kind and intensity, but a suffering of going from one punishment to another.

Many persons imagine that Satan runs Hell, or that he is in charge of torturing its residents. Not so. If Hell is compared to a prison without bars, then Satan and his angels are fellow prisoners, not the guards or warden.

It is one of the sufferings of Hell to have devils as fellow inmates. Seeing them and knowing the horrors of their complete sinfulness is a neverending suffering for the human beings there. However, the devils do not directly torture the residents of Hell; instead, they are powerless. It would give the devils some perverse enjoyment to torture fellow residents of Hell; but this is denied them.

Many persons imagine that Hell is filled with the most extreme tortures for everyone there. Artistic depictions of Hell often portray this feature, along with a great chaos. But this is not true.

Hell is an act, not only of the Justice of God, but of His eternal Mercy. Everyone in Hell is punished according to the nature and extent of their unrepentant sins. This is justice. But everyone in Hell is also punished less than their sins deserve. This is Mercy. God is merciful even to the persons in Hell.

Many persons in Hell may well also have some sins from which they repented in life, but for which they did not complete the temporal punishment due. They cannot go to Purgatory to atone for this punishment. So they suffer in Hell for the temporal punishment due. But then the punishment for those repented sins ends. So their suffering decreases at that point in time.

Many persons in Hell may well have done some truly good acts in their lives. They shall not lose their reward for such acts. Lets compare two souls in Hell. Both committed murder and did not repent. But the first did much good in his life before he fell into that sin; the second did not. So the first will suffer less, in that he will have a neverending consolation in the good that he did, along side his neverending punishment. The sufferings of the first are less in that they are tempered by this consolation; whereas the sufferings of the second are not. Nevertheless, as concerns the punishment itself, both are punished equally for the same kind and extent of sin.

No one in Hell sins there. Like the souls in Purgatory, and in Heaven, they are prevented from sinning, lest they offend God and his faithful forever. Hell is God's place, and although He is not present to its residents in the sense of the Beatific Vision of God, He is nevertheless present everywhere as concerns His power and knowledge. God runs Hell, not the devils. So it is a place of order, justice, and mercy. And God prevents them all from sinning.

All the souls and angels in Hell are tortured by truth. They do not continue in the lies of their lives. God reveals the truth to them about their sins. They fully realize and cannot deny, even to themselves, that they are guilty and are punished justly and mercifully. This is one of the sufferings of Hell.

In Heaven, each resident of Heaven gives the other residents a unique kind of joy forever. But in Hell, each resident is a unique source of bitterness forever:
[Luke]
{16:27} And he said: ‘Then, father, I beg you to send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers,
{16:28} so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torments.’

This man in Hell wanted his brothers to avoid Hell because they would affect his suffering there, not so much increasing it, but changing its quality. The kind and degree of suffering in Hell is related to the kind and degree of unrepentant sins. But the quality of the suffering is affected by the kind and degree of the sins of the other residents, just as in Heaven, each residents virture and good deeds are a source of sweetness to the residents there.


Ron

Ron, is it accurate to say, then, that Hell is literally the antithesis of Heaven in that, for example, in Heaven the resident's joy is augmented by their combined state of joy and love while in Hell the resident's torment is augmented by their combined state of sorrow and loss?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 2nd July 2007, 12:08 PM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,657
Default Garabandal and visions of Hell...The Corpus Christi Night of Screams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Padraig View Post
I know it sounds strange but I always thought hell is at the centre of the world, in the great ocean of magma down there. The description of the kids at Fatima seems to bear this out. i know this sounds simplistic, but there you are.

"She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear."


Students of Garabandal will note that during the Corpus Christi Night of Screams the town was so affected by the terror of the girls that nearly everyone in town rushed to confession within 24 hours. They say that if we knew the torments of Hell we would spend half our time in Church.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 2nd July 2007, 12:28 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,586
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by garabandalg View Post
Ron, is it accurate to say, then, that Hell is literally the antithesis of Heaven in that, for example, in Heaven the resident's joy is augmented by their combined state of joy and love while in Hell the resident's torment is augmented by their combined state of sorrow and loss?

In many respects, yes, but I would not say 'literally.'
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 2nd July 2007, 06:13 PM
Brother Brother is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,816
Default

Ron, humans in Hell can not get out of this place; however, the devils can get out of this place to tempt us over here on earth. Is that correct?

If so, then, the devils are tormented in hell, but once they temporarily come out of this place to tempt us here on earth, are not they tormented in the same manner as in Hell for a short while until they come back into Hell?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 2nd July 2007, 06:18 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,586
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother View Post
Ron, humans in Hell can not get out of this place; however, the devils can get out of this place to tempt us over here on earth. Is that correct?

If so, then, the devils are tormented in hell, but once they temporarily come out of this place to tempt us here on earth, are not they tormented in the same manner as in Hell for a short while until they come back into Hell?

I don't believe that the devils can move in and out of Hell as they please.

Apparently, some are there already condemned, and others are allowed to tempt us for a time before being sent there.

Or, it could be the case that since Hell is outside of the usual timeline, that the devils are there because they will be sent there eventually.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 2nd July 2007, 06:34 PM
Brother Brother is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,816
Default

Thanks Ron.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 5th July 2007, 12:19 PM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,657
Default Ouija Board as playing with hellish fire...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
I don't believe that the devils can move in and out of Hell as they please.

Apparently, some are there already condemned, and others are allowed to tempt us for a time before being sent there.

Or, it could be the case that since Hell is outside of the usual timeline, that the devils are there because they will be sent there eventually.

Ron, I have heard terrible things about the Ouija Board and its dangers. Do you believe that this thing can really channel damned spirits and even demons?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 5th July 2007, 01:51 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,586
Default

I don't know, but it would be prudent not to engage in such activities.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 6th July 2007, 01:07 AM
VeiledProphetess
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ron,

I find your reflections on this topic weirdly comforting. It does seem reasonable to me that this is the way Hell works. I often am faced with objections to the Christian faith along the lines of "Why would a merciful God condemn people to eternal torture for temporal sins, or just for not believing in Him?" and this helps me with the issue.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.