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  #21  
Old 8th August 2008, 07:31 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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Mary is also the Mother of God the Son, Jesus Christ, the King of kings, the King of Heaven and Earth (so she's even more than all the prophets in this aspect). God is the Author of the Commandment to Honor our father and our mother; so God Himself accomplishes His own Law by honoring His Mother and, thus, letting her be the first human after God to be introduced into Heaven in body and soul which is the goal of al Christians. Even the Angels honor Mary in Heaven for being the Mother of God.

Our human love is very limited and lacking; yet some people, once they have money, buy houses for their parents (the best they can afford). Imagine what the Love of God (The Source) can do.
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  #22  
Old 10th August 2008, 12:39 AM
Justin Angel Justin Angel is offline
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Originally Posted by Angela View Post
Ron, are there any ancient writings that have survived, from the early church fathers, about Mary's death and Assumption?

Angela, I believe this is the earliest extant fragment alluding to the Assumption.

"Let them search the Scriptures. They will not find Mary's death; they will not find whether she died or did not die; they will not find whether she was buried or was not buried. More than that: John journeyed to Asia, yet nowhere do we read that he took the holy Virgin with him. Rather Scripture is silent on Mary's end because of the extraordinary nature of the prodigy, in order not to shock the minds of men...Neither do I maintain stoutly that she died...Did she die? We do not know. At all events, if she was buried, she had no carnal intercourse...Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and he can do whatever he desires."
Epiphanius [A.D. 377]

Pax J.A.
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  #23  
Old 10th August 2008, 01:04 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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St. John Damascene (b. 767, d. 787?)
"It was fitting that she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped in the act of giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father. It was fitting that God's Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God."
(MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS, 21)

Sacramenatary of Pope Adrian I (d. 795)
"Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself." (MD, 17)

St. Germanus of Constantinople (d. 740)
"You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life."
(MD, 22)

Pope St. Sergius I (d. 701)
'he specified together the Feasts of the Nativity, the Annunciation, the Purification, and the Dormition of the Virgin Mary.' (MD 19)


For other references, see:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pi...s-deus_en.html
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  #24  
Old 25th June 2009, 02:02 AM
Justin Angel Justin Angel is offline
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
At the end of the Virgin Mary's life on earth, she was living at Ephesus. By Divine Providence and grace, 10 of the 11 remaining Apostles (including Matthias who replaced Judas, but not including James the greater, who had been martyred) gathered at Ephesus. There was a holy Mass led by Saint Peter, in which the Virgin Mary received holy Communion and last rites.

Then, soon after receiving her Son in the Sacrament, Mary's soul left her body by Divine intervention, and so she died. Her soul went to Heaven. Her body remained on earth to be venerated by the Apostles and other holy persons (a kind of wake lasting about 12 days) in a tomb, much like the tomb of our Lord. Then the tomb was sealed, beginning on Friday. On the third day, early on Sunday, Jesus broughy Mary's soul back from Heaven and raised her from the dead, and she was immediately assumed, with body and soul united, into Heaven.

The Assumption is an infallible dogma. The Dormition (death) and Resurrection of Mary is at least a teaching under the Ordinary Magisterium. The same Apostolic Constitution which infallibly proclaims the Assumption, teaches non-infallibly the death and Resurrection of Mary:
[quoted from my book, Important Dates...]

At the end of her life on earth, the Blessed Virgin Mary died, was resurrected from the dead, and was
assumed into Heaven. Some Catholics doubt that the Virgin Mary died and was resurrected before being
assumed into Heaven. But the Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus, (also titled,
“Defining the Dogma of the Assumption”), clearly and repeatedly refers to the death of the Virgin Mary. In
no less than seven separate paragraphs this Apostolic Constitution refers, in one way or another, to the death
of the Virgin Mary:

1. “In the same way, it was not difficult for them to admit that the great Mother of God, like her only
begotten Son, had actually passed from this life.” (paragraph 14)
2. “ ‘Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered
temporal death….’ ” (paragraph 17)
3. “ ‘As he kept you a virgin in childbirth, thus he has kept your body incorrupt in the tomb and has
glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb.’ ” (paragraph 1
4. “…this feast shows, not only that the dead body of the Blessed Virgin Mary remained incorrupt,
but that she gained a triumph out of death….” (paragraph 20)
5. “ ‘It was fitting that she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body
free from all corruption even after death.’ ” (paragraph 21)
6. “ ‘…she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her
up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him.’ ” (paragraph 22)
7. “Hence the revered Mother of God…finally obtained, as the supreme culmination of her privileges,
that she should be preserved free from the corruption of the tomb and that, like her own Son, having
overcome death, she might be taken up body and soul to the glory of heaven….” (paragraph 40)

This Apostolic Constitution also clearly refers to the Resurrection of the Virgin Mary, not only by saying she
was raised up from the tomb (e.g. #6 above), but also by stating that her soul was reunited with her body:
“…the Virgin Mary’s flesh had remained incorrupt—for it is wrong to believe that her body has seen
corruption—because it was really united again to her soul and, together with it, crowned with great glory in
the heavenly courts.” (paragraph 28 ). Death is the separation of the soul from the body. Resurrection is the reuniting
of the soul with the body. Here is a clear reference to the Resurrection of the Virgin Mary.

Furthermore, nowhere within this Apostolic Constitution does Pope Pius XII in anyway suggest even the
possibility that the Virgin Mary may not have died at the end of her life on earth. Therefore, it is the teaching
of the Catholic Church that the Virgin Mary died, was resurrected from the dead, and was thereafter assumed
into Heaven. This teaching is well understood among the Eastern Churches, where many Christians observe
the 14-day Fast of the Dormition prior to their celebration of the Virgin Mary’s Assumption into Heaven. The
Dormition of the Virgin Mary is her “falling asleep” in Christ (cf. Jn 11:11-14), in other words, her death.

Ron, do I understand correctly that the anathema attached to the Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius Xll does not apply to the traditional belief in Mary's dormition ("falling asleep" at death) but only to the manner in which our Blessed Mother has been glorified in her Assumption, that is being preserved free from the universal law of the corruption of death by virtue of her Immaculate Conception and being bodily assumed into heaven? I have read that the pontiff refrained from defining the "end of the course of Mary's earthly life" and left the manner of her end in this life an open theological question. Thanks.
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  #25  
Old 25th June 2009, 11:19 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Angel View Post
Ron, do I understand correctly that the anathema attached to the Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius Xll does not apply to the traditional belief in Mary's dormition ("falling asleep" at death) but only to the manner in which our Blessed Mother has been glorified in her Assumption, that is being preserved free from the universal law of the corruption of death by virtue of her Immaculate Conception and being bodily assumed into heaven? I have read that the pontiff refrained from defining the "end of the course of Mary's earthly life" and left the manner of her end in this life an open theological question. Thanks.

The Apostolic Constitution on the Assumption infallibly teaches that Mary was assumed into Heaven, body and soul, at the end of her life. The document also teaches, non-infallibly that she first died and rose from the dead, before being assumed.

It is not an open theological question as to whether or not she died. A theological question is open when the Magisterium has no teaching, infallible or non-infallible, on the question. The mere absense of an infallible teachings does not make the question open.

I don't know what you mean by 'falling asleep at death.'

The traditional view in the East is that she died; it was not a death due to old age or disease or injury or violence. She died because it was God's will that she follow Christ, even by dying and rising. The term sleep is used to refer to the death of any of the faithful because death is only temporary; we will all be raised at the general Resurrection.

I don't think this is an accurate expression of the Assumption: "preserved free from the universal law of the corruption of death by virtue of her Immaculate Conception and being bodily assumed into heaven".

She did die; that is the ordinary teaching of the Church. The assertion that the Immaculate Conception implies the assumption is a good theological insight, but I don't know that it is a teaching. She was assumed, body and soul, into heaven, not merely bodily.
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  #26  
Old 3rd July 2009, 02:55 AM
Justin Angel Justin Angel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
The Apostolic Constitution on the Assumption infallibly teaches that Mary was assumed into Heaven, body and soul, at the end of her life. The document also teaches, non-infallibly that she first died and rose from the dead, before being assumed.

It is not an open theological question as to whether or not she died. A theological question is open when the Magisterium has no teaching, infallible or non-infallible, on the question. The mere absense of an infallible teachings does not make the question open.

Did the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception become a non-infallible teaching of the ordinary Magisterium when Pope Sixtus lV established its feast day in 1476? I recall Aquinas, for one, questioned the veracity of this teaching before then, but the pontiff forbade all religious orders to openly question it from that time on.

Quote:
I don't know what you mean by 'falling asleep at death.'

That Mary had physically died in Christ temporarily in anticipation of her resurrection from the dead.

Quote:
I don't think this is an accurate expression of the Assumption: "preserved free from the universal law of the corruption of death by virtue of her Immaculate Conception and being bodily assumed into heaven".

She did die; that is the ordinary teaching of the Church. The assertion that the Immaculate Conception implies the assumption is a good theological insight, but I don't know that it is a teaching. She was assumed, body and soul, into heaven, not merely bodily.

5. "Now God has willed that the Blessed Virgin Mary should be exempted from this rule (the corruption of the body after death, cf. 4.). She, by an entirely unique privilege, completely overcame sin by her Immaculate Conception, and as a result she was not subject to remaining in the corruption of the grave, and she did not have to wait until the end of time for the redemption of her body."
Pope Pius Xll, Munificentissimus Deus

By "bodily" I mean physical or corporeal with the soul reunited with the body.

Thanks again for your generous time, Ron.
Pax Christu
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  #27  
Old 3rd July 2009, 12:52 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Angel View Post
Did the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception become a non-infallible teaching of the ordinary Magisterium when Pope Sixtus lV established its feast day in 1476? I recall Aquinas, for one, questioned the veracity of this teaching before then, but the pontiff forbade all religious orders to openly question it from that time on.

It is not clear at what point the Immaculate Conception became a non-infallible teaching. It gradually advanced from a speculative theological opinion, in various forms, to more or less the same common opinion among many theologians, to a doctrine taught by many priests, but perhaps prematurely (not yet a non-infallible doctrine), to a doctrine taught by Bishops.

The mere establishment of a feast day is not a teaching at all. For it does not tell us what we are to understand by the terminology or title used to describe the feast. So this would not constitute even a non-infallible teaching.

Grave Nimis
http://rubricsandritual.blogspot.com...ave-nimis.html
written after the feast day was established, still allows for contrary opinions without heresy. But heresy only refers to infallible teachings (See Can. 749 - 751). So this does not decide the question as to when the doctrine first began to be taught non-infallibly.
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  #28  
Old 5th July 2009, 02:30 AM
Justin Angel Justin Angel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
It is not clear at what point the Immaculate Conception became a non-infallible teaching. It gradually advanced from a speculative theological opinion, in various forms, to more or less the same common opinion among many theologians, to a doctrine taught by many priests, but perhaps prematurely (not yet a non-infallible doctrine), to a doctrine taught by Bishops.

The mere establishment of a feast day is not a teaching at all. For it does not tell us what we are to understand by the terminology or title used to describe the feast. So this would not constitute even a non-infallible teaching.

Grave Nimis
http://rubricsandritual.blogspot.com...ave-nimis.html
written after the feast day was established, still allows for contrary opinions without heresy. But heresy only refers to infallible teachings (See Can. 749 - 751). So this does not decide the question as to when the doctrine first began to be taught non-infallibly.

I assumed that a non-infallible teaching of the ordinary Magisterium would have to exist first before a feast day could be established. And perhaps I'm mistaken in thinking that a Catholic may piously dissent from an established non-infallible teaching of the Church, i.e., the Dormition.

Meanwhile I disagree with some Catholics that Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven without dying by virtue of her freedom from sin. Our Lord was free from all stain of sin, yet he physically died. Enoch and Elijah were conceived in original sin but escaped physical death according to tradition - at least temporarily. The redemption of their bodies and their glorious resurrection will occur at the end of time together with all humankind who sleep in Christ.

Ron, concerning the Dormition, why is it St. Bridget of Sweden had it revealed to her that Mary's tomb is in the Valley of Josaphat, whereas Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich reports in a vision (meditation?) that Mary was entombed near Ephesus? Thanks.

Last edited by Justin Angel : 5th July 2009 at 02:45 AM.
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  #29  
Old 5th July 2009, 01:20 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Angel View Post
I assumed that a non-infallible teaching of the ordinary Magisterium would have to exist first before a feast day could be established. And perhaps I'm mistaken in thinking that a Catholic may piously dissent from an established non-infallible teaching of the Church, i.e., the Dormition.
The establishment of a feast day is an act of the temporal authority, not the teaching authority. It is not clear whether or not the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, at that point in time (the establishment of the feast), had been taught under the non-infallible ordinary Magisterium.

Some faithful dissent from a non-infallible teaching is possible. The document Grave Nimis only forbids accusations of heresy against either side of the question, implying only that it was not yet an infallible teaching. An idea contrary to a non-infallible teaching is not heresy, but may be a doctrinal error. Grave Nimis favors the idea of the Immaculate Conception, but does not say, in my reading of it, if it is a non-infallible teaching or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Angel View Post
Meanwhile I disagree with some Catholics that Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven without dying by virtue of her freedom from sin. Our Lord was free from all stain of sin, yet he physically died. Enoch and Elijah were conceived in original sin but escaped physical death according to tradition - at least temporarily. The redemption of their bodies and their glorious resurrection will occur at the end of time together with all humankind who sleep in Christ.

The death of the Virgin Mary is established as a non-infallible teaching by the Apostolic Constitution that also infallibly defined her Assumption. It is not a tenable position to hold that a question is open when an Apostolic Constitution has clearly taught the answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Angel View Post
Ron, concerning the Dormition, why is it St. Bridget of Sweden had it revealed to her that Mary's tomb is in the Valley of Josaphat, whereas Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich reports in a vision (meditation?) that Mary was entombed near Ephesus? Thanks.

private revelation is fallible because the recipient might misunderstand what they were shown. God does not correct misunderstandings by persons who receive private revelation because, if He did, private revelation would supercede Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium. God does not undermine His own plan.

St. Bridget may have been shown a vision, along with the words of the Virgin Mary. When she wrote down the vision, she may have added the name of the valley from what she misunderstood seeing. This may have happened because there was a tradition (not Sacred Tradition) that Mary died in Jerusalem. Blessed Emmerich says that Mary was in Jerusalem about a year or two before her actual death, and (probably due to meditating on the Passion and Crucifixion so deeply) she seemed near death. So the Apostles and disciples made a tomb for her. But she recovered and returned to Ephesus. St. Bridget may have been aware of this tradition, and so she misinterpreted her vision.
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  #30  
Old 6th July 2009, 12:33 AM
Justin Angel Justin Angel is offline
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post

private revelation is fallible because the recipient might misunderstand what they were shown. God does not correct misunderstandings by persons who receive private revelation because, if He did, private revelation would supercede Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium. God does not undermine His own plan.

St. Bridget may have been shown a vision, along with the words of the Virgin Mary. When she wrote down the vision, she may have added the name of the valley from what she misunderstood seeing. This may have happened because there was a tradition (not Sacred Tradition) that Mary died in Jerusalem. Blessed Emmerich says that Mary was in Jerusalem about a year or two before her actual death, and (probably due to meditating on the Passion and Crucifixion so deeply) she seemed near death. So the Apostles and disciples made a tomb for her. But she recovered and returned to Ephesus. St. Bridget may have been aware of this tradition, and so she misinterpreted her vision.

The Virgin Mary appeared to St. Bridget, when she was actually in the tomb east of Jerusalem while on pilgrimage to the Holy Land, and told her that this was the place where she had been laid to rest. Historically there is no tradition of the tomb being near Ephesus. We have a record of people making pilgrimages only to the tomb in the valley of Josaphat (cf. Catholic Encyclopedia). Meanwhile, the words of Mary confirm the early oral tradition related by Bishop Juvenal, of Jerusalem, to Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria at the Council of Chalcedon.
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