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  #1  
Old 2nd May 2008, 09:10 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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Default "Selling" Indulgences?

Ron and everyone,

During the Reformation period, the Pope decided that, to raise money for St. Peter Basilica, the faithful shall donate money to the Church so they can receive an indulgence. For more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther



The sale of indulgences shown in A Question to a Mintmaker, woodcut by Jörg Breu the Elder of Augsburg, circa 1530.

Holly Scripture tells us:

[Act of the Apostles 8]
{8:20} “Let your money be with you in perdition, for you have supposed that a gift of God might be possessed by money.
{8:21} There is no part or place for you in this matter. For your heart is not upright in the sight of God.
{8:22} And so, repent from this, your wickedness, and beg God, so that perhaps this plan of your heart might be forgiven you.
{8:23} For I perceive you to be in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.”


Now, what the Church did during this time falls under temporary authority and was this a correct procedure or it was simple during the period of a sinful Pope and authorities?

If it was sinful authority, then, perhaps God's Providence permitted the schism started by Martin Luther (a bad, for a greater good) because of the public domain access to the Scriptures which was not easily reached to the lay people back then. The greater good is that the Church will be unified (Catholics and Protestants) in our now near future. Luther writes in Thesis 86, which asks: "Why does the pope, whose wealth today is greater than the wealth of the richest Crassus, build the basilica of St. Peter with the money of poor believers rather than with his own money?". I'm thinking of this (bad for greater good) because somethimes God's Providence works in mysterious ways.

Also, Ron's escathology is telling us that this great work of Art, St. Peter Vasilica is going to be distroyed. Is God permitting this because of this root?

Last edited by Brother : 2nd May 2008 at 09:13 PM.
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  #2  
Old 2nd May 2008, 10:50 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Jesus taught us to give alms.
So it is a good work, a work of mercy, to give money for the building of a basilica.
Indulgences can be granted for prayer, self-denial, or works of mercy.
Therefore, indulgences can be granted for donating money to the building of a basilica.

This is not the selling of indulgences.

Even if an indulgence was not granted, people who donated money for the building of the basilica would be doing a good work, which would atone for some or all of the temporal punishment due for their sins.

The Protestant reformation was harmful to the Church. God permitted it because of the hardness of our hearts (Catholics and Protestants). And God knew that He could and would bring goodness out of this evil of heresy and schism. But the departure of the Protestants from the true faith was not, in and of itself, desired by God. Rather, it was permitted.

Likewise, the destruction of Vatican City is permitted due to the many sins of Catholics, just as God permitted the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem due to the sins of Israel. And God knows that He can accomplish good, even when evil seems to prevail.
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  #3  
Old 2nd May 2008, 11:19 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Jesus taught us to give alms.
So it is a good work, a work of mercy, to give money for the building of a basilica.
Indulgences can be granted for prayer, self-denial, or works of mercy.
Therefore, indulgences can be granted for donating money to the building of a basilica.

This is not the selling of indulgences.

Even if an indulgence was not granted, people who donated money for the building of the basilica would be doing a good work, which would atone for some or all of the temporal punishment due for their sins.

The Protestant reformation was harmful to the Church. God permitted it because of the hardness of our hearts (Catholics and Protestants). And God knew that He could and would bring goodness out of this evil of heresy and schism. But the departure of the Protestants from the true faith was not, in and of itself, desired by God. Rather, it was permitted.

Likewise, the destruction of Vatican City is permitted due to the many sins of Catholics, just as God permitted the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem due to the sins of Israel. And God knows that He can accomplish good, even when evil seems to prevail.

Thanks Ron for this valuable information.
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  #4  
Old 3rd May 2008, 02:46 PM
Bible Apprentice Bible Apprentice is offline
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Default One better than the other?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Jesus taught us to give alms.

Even if an indulgence was not granted, people who donated money for the building of the basilica would be doing a good work, which would atone for some or all of the temporal punishment due for their sin.

Ron,

is there a difference between giving alms for the construction of basilica as compared to, say, giving alms to feed the poor?

Is one better than the other?

Moses' law requires that the firstborn, and if I understand it properly, the first of the harvest should be offered to God. It does say to leave some of the harvest for the poor, but God comes first.

Thanks. Peace.
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  #5  
Old 3rd May 2008, 03:03 PM
VKallin VKallin is offline
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Default The protestant reformation

"When the soldiers had crucified Jesus, they took his clothes and divided them into four shares, one for each soldier. They also took his tunic, but the tunic was seamless,woven in one peace from the top down. So they said to one another, let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, to see whose it will be" (John 19:23)

The body of Christ (ie the church) was covered by a seamless garment. Could this foreshadow the day when the body of Christ will again be seamless. Even the soldiers who crucified Christ recognized that the seamless garment would have no value if it was divided. As already mentioned....God will bring good from the evil of the Protestant Reformation. It will be a glorius day when all of Christianity again reflects "The unity for which Christ prayed".
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  #6  
Old 3rd May 2008, 06:15 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bible Apprentice View Post
Ron,

is there a difference between giving alms for the construction of basilica as compared to, say, giving alms to feed the poor?

Is one better than the other?

spiritual benefits are greater than material benefits,
therefore, almsgiving to fill spiritual needs is greater than almsgiving to fill material needs.

Saving someone from death is a good work,
but saving someone from spiritual death (mortal sin/Hell) is a greater work.
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  #7  
Old 3rd May 2008, 06:16 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VKallin View Post
The body of Christ (ie the church) was covered by a seamless garment. Could this foreshadow the day when the body of Christ will again be seamless. Even the soldiers who crucified Christ recognized that the seamless garment would have no value if it was divided. As already mentioned....God will bring good from the evil of the Protestant Reformation. It will be a glorius day when all of Christianity again reflects "The unity for which Christ prayed".

good insight; i agree.
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  #8  
Old 14th February 2009, 08:54 AM
ExCelciuS ExCelciuS is offline
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Default Indulgence as a sacred one

Ron, in this thread you said that indulgences can be granted by donating money to the building of a basilica. How if there is a rich person from noble family who donate money so he received indulgence but in his heart he hasn't repent from his sin at all(still doing bad and sinfull thing)? Doesn't the priest should seek heart of the penitent first if he is going to give an indulgence? Why to me, it seems the priest at that times make a lower degree of indulgence, why it seems they prioritized money first? Why to me it seems they don't deem an indulgence as a sacred one which Jesus himself give this ability (to forgive sin of mankind) to Peter and his apostles?
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Last edited by ExCelciuS : 14th February 2009 at 08:56 AM.
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  #9  
Old 14th February 2009, 12:32 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExCelciuS View Post
Ron, in this thread you said that indulgences can be granted by donating money to the building of a basilica. How if there is a rich person from noble family who donate money so he received indulgence but in his heart he hasn't repent from his sin at all(still doing bad and sinfull thing)? Doesn't the priest should seek heart of the penitent first if he is going to give an indulgence? Why to me, it seems the priest at that times make a lower degree of indulgence, why it seems they prioritized money first? Why to me it seems they don't deem an indulgence as a sacred one which Jesus himself give this ability (to forgive sin of mankind) to Peter and his apostles?

The priest should not judge the hearts and souls of his flock. If they give money for the Church, he does not know what is in the giver's heart and mind. If the giver is unrepentant, that is for God to judge. But perhaps good works such as almsgiving will play a role in that person repenting from sin.

Yes, priests should give more effort and attention to saving souls than to building chuches.
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