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  #31  
Old 6th July 2009, 02:37 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by Justin Angel View Post
The Virgin Mary appeared to St. Bridget, when she was actually in the tomb east of Jerusalem while on pilgrimage to the Holy Land, and told her that this was the place where she had been laid to rest.

Since all of this is not Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture, not anything taught by the Magisterium, we must consider that the account may be mistaken. Perhaps St. Bridget was not in a tomb when she received a vision. Perhaps she was told some things, and shown other things, and she confused the two when writing it down (or whoever wrote it down).

Or it could be that Bl. Emmerich is the one who erred on this point; but my opinion is that Mary died at Ephesus. There is a tradition that she lived there; and her house (or the remains of it) is there. Recently, there was a miracle that supports this. "An enormous fire destroyed 1,200 hectares of forest, but the flames stopped one metre short of the shrine."
http://www.asianews.it/view.php/len/...art=7039&size=

But my point is that all this is private revelation and subject to error.

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Originally Posted by Justin Angel View Post
Historically there is no tradition of the tomb being near Ephesus. We have a record of people making pilgrimages only to the tomb in the valley of Josaphat (cf. Catholic Encyclopedia). Meanwhile, the words of Mary confirm the early oral tradition related by Bishop Juvenal, of Jerusalem, to Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria at the Council of Chalcedon.

You are assuming that Mary said those words. Because it was a private revelation centuries ago, that might not be correct. The 'oral tradition' that you cite is not Sacred Tradition, and so is subject to error.

We must distinguish between fallible sources, and infallible sources.
It is not certain whether Mary died at Jerusalem or at Ephesus.
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  #32  
Old 8th January 2011, 01:30 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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Mary died before rising and being assumed into Heaven because she is the most perfect follower of Christ, who died, rose, and ascended to Heaven, and because this is the same path that all the faithful take: death, the general resurrection, the assumption of all the faithful.

The historical details of the event are irrelevant to the dogma. Yes, these are found in private revelation.

It does not make more sense for Mary not to have died, because she suffered at the foot of the Cross, and so she also followed Christ even unto death.

Ron,

what do you mean by: The historical details of the event are irrelevant to the dogma.

the historical facts are not needed to prove the dogma? Does this mean we need not mind if two or more actually witnessed this event, wrote it down, passed it on and not just assumed it?
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  #33  
Old 8th January 2011, 12:36 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Ron,

what do you mean by: The historical details of the event are irrelevant to the dogma.

the historical facts are not needed to prove the dogma? Does this mean we need not mind if two or more actually witnessed this event, wrote it down, passed it on and not just assumed it?

For example, it does not matter where or when Mary was assumed, and it does not matter who witnessed the assumption. Similarly, scholars debate about the year of the Crucifixion, but it does not matter to our salvation when the Crucifixion occurred, but only that it did occur.

Blessed A.C. Emmerich describes the Assumption in this book:
http://www.catholicplanet.com/ebooks...irgin-Mary.pdf
p. 228

The Apostles were there for her death, and they also witnessed the empty tomb.

The event of the Assumption does not need to be witnessed. It is sufficient that the truths taught by Tradition and Scripture imply that she must have been assumed. Corruption of the body is a result of sin. She did not sin, therefore, her body was not corrupted. The truths stated by TSM, and the truths implied by TSM are both types of Divine Revelation.
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  #34  
Old 9th January 2011, 11:42 PM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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Ron,
the thing they asked about the Assumption is there should be a witness it is a requirement that there are 2 or more witness as Bible says and Bl emmerich is from 18th century.
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  #35  
Old 10th January 2011, 12:55 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Ron,
the thing they asked about the Assumption is there should be a witness it is a requirement that there are 2 or more witness as Bible says and Bl emmerich is from 18th century.

That argument is based on the same types of assumptions that lead to Protestantism. I think I've said this before, but in arguing with Protestants don't fall into the trap of accepting their restrictions and their limitations on what is or is not a source of truth. Do not let them set the rules about what is or is not a valid source of Revelation from God. Their approach leads to their version of religion.
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  #36  
Old 10th January 2011, 11:34 PM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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ok Ron I was able to bring the discussion accd. to TSM

the historical details of the event are irrelevant to the dogma.
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