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Old 7th May 2007, 11:53 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default TS 6: original sin, freewill, and grace

Adam and Eve were created by God in a state of original innocence.
They had sanctifying grace from the first moment of their creation.
They had no concupiscence (tendency toward sin).
They could not be mistaken in anything that they knew, for their
minds and hearts were unclouded by sin.
They lived in Paradise.

Adam and Eve fell from grace by an actual mortal sin, a sin which
they each fully realized was a serious offense against God and which
they each deliberately chose to commit.

By this sin, they lost sanctifying grace, and they were removed from
Paradise by God. Their descendents had no sactifying grace from conception,
and so they (we) must obtain sanctifying grace by Baptism. Their
descendants also have concupiscence, which is a tendency toward sin
due to our fallen human nature.

Human nature is fallen in that we are conceived without sanctifying grace in our souls,
and in that our bodies are not entirely obedient to, and in harmony with, our souls.
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Old 7th May 2007, 01:33 PM
Joan
 
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Default Implications

What are the implications of this condition? For example, we all experience the phenomenon that "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." However, other implications are hinted at in Scripture, as in the passage regarding why humanity is never free from the scourge of war: "they are at war within their own members" is the explanation.
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Old 7th May 2007, 02:08 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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Would a person who has been baptized (with sactifying grace) believe in Jesus as the true Messiah more easily than a person who has not been baptized (without sactifying grace)?

Would be correct to think that a person who has been baptized would be like having a seed of faith inside which just needs water to grow and a person who has not been baptized would need more work in order to accept this seed since has not sactifying grace and our natural tendency to sin?
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Old 7th May 2007, 02:11 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joan View Post
What are the implications of this condition? For example, we all experience the phenomenon that "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." However, other implications are hinted at in Scripture, as in the passage regarding why humanity is never free from the scourge of war: "they are at war within their own members" is the explanation.

see my answer in the other thread.

Yes, sin and suffering resulted from the inheritance of the consequences of the Fall from grace.

Another consequence is that the will is weakened and the intellect is obscured, so that people think
that they have found truth when they have not. (This will be covered as we continue to examine the
Canons of Orange).
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  #5  
Old 7th May 2007, 05:24 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
see my answer in the other thread.

Yes, sin and suffering resulted from the inheritance of the consequences of the Fall from grace.

Another consequence is that the will is weakened and the intellect is obscured, so that people think
that they have found truth when they have not. (This will be covered as we continue to examine the
Canons of Orange).

Oh Felix Culpum. What do you think of the whole Felix Culpum idea Ron as expressed in the Exsultet???
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Old 7th May 2007, 05:45 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Oh happy fault of Adam, which gave us so great a Savior.

mankind responded with sin to God's gift of the creation of humanity,
to which God responded with the even greater gift of Himself incarnate.
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  #7  
Old 7th May 2007, 08:16 PM
Joey Joey is offline
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Ron,
I notice that your wording does not include "original sin", and instead it stresses the loss of sanctifying grace. That puts it into a much better perspective. I always have a heck of a time explaining that we are born with the stain of sin as a completely innocent infant.
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"Closer to You bid me, that with Your saints I may be praising Your name, forever and ever."

Joey
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Old 7th May 2007, 09:04 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey View Post
Ron,
I notice that your wording does not include "original sin", and instead it stresses the loss of sanctifying grace. That puts it into a much better perspective. I always have a heck of a time explaining that we are born with the stain of sin as a completely innocent infant.

The sin of Adam and Eve consisted of three things:
1. their personal choice to sin
2. the loss of sanctifying grace in the soul
3. the fallen state of our bodies (concupiscence, or tendency toward sin)

An infant is not completely innocent, because they bear the wounds of
the serious of Adam and Eve, in that they lack sanctifying grace (which
is remedied by Baptism) and they have a tendency toward sin.

I did use the term original sin, in the title of the post.
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  #9  
Old 7th May 2007, 09:19 PM
DiAZ216
 
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The Catechism puts it that we have "disordered apetites which are the consequences of original sin."

Adam and Eve weren't alone in their sin -- they of course were tricked by the serpent. In the same way, Satan is tricking many inthe world today with the lies of a materialistic, secular, individualistic and selfish, self-serving world.

Interesting the timing that you started this thread Ron. I was contemplating on these things the last three days, and I just posted my thoughts on my blog:

http://darrellbowles-climbingthemountain.blogspot.com/

Darrell
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  #10  
Old 11th May 2007, 07:20 AM
Justin Angel Justin Angel is offline
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Cool Absolved Mortal Sins & Purgatory

Ron, must we still spend some time in Purgatory for the mortal sins we have committed,
but that have been absolved by a priest in the confessional?
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