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  #11  
Old 19th June 2007, 10:21 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by Joey View Post
Ron,
How does one determine if an annulment was granted by mistake? Is this something that will only be discovered after death? What would the consequences be for persons who are living in a natural marriage, thinking that it is sacramentally valid?

Sometimes it is clear whether or not a Sacrament of Marriage exists. Othertimes it can be quite uncertain. The three requirements for a valid Sacrament of Marriage are:
1. consent
2. consummation
3. form (includes all of the requirements for a valid Sacrament in Canon Law)

If one of these is absent or is diminished very substantially, then the Sacrament is not valid. But one cannot always be certain.

The ideal for a couple in an invalid or possibly invalid marriage is to receive the Sacrament of Marriage (a conditional private ceremony before a priest is used). But the situation can be very complex, so I can only make a few general statements.
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  #12  
Old 19th June 2007, 10:25 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by garabandalg View Post
Like Joey, I too wonder about the validity of annulments. If a person is in a shell of a marriage with a spouse who verbally abuses, demeans, mocks and generally disrespects that person, what is that person to do?

Does the Church want them to stay in such a predicament despite the obvious torment, suffering and stress of that situation?

What if that other person does not want to go to counseling, refuses to try anything to work on the marriage and demonstrates in many ways that he or she either never had or has completely given up on the true concept of marriage which is two people as one willing to work on things for better or worse, in sickness or in health, till death do them part? What is the other person who has always believed in the sanctity and permanence of marriage to do?

Simply put, I agree that people should not receive annulments in cases where the other spouse is not doing anything destructive to the marriage and family and the spouse seeking the annulment just wants an out. But what about those cases where that other spouse is psychologically, verbally and emotionally abusing the spouse considering seeking an annulment. Does the Church say grin and bear it?

In cases of abuse, where other interventions have not been successful, the Church permits the couple to separate, and even to get a civil divorce. But the bond of holy matrimony persists, so neither spouse can remarry.

An annulment might be granted if one of the spouses did not give full consent, which must include a consent to the Sacrament of Marriage, not merely to a ceremony or to a natural marriage. If one spouse clearly never intended to consent to a true Sacrament of Marriage, an annulment might be properly granted. However, such things are difficult to judge, because the human mind and heart can be complex and deep, with many mixed motivations for any decision.
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  #13  
Old 19th June 2007, 10:31 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by Joan View Post
1)Natural Marriage is considered as a binding marriage, even if not Sacramental; i.e., I married a non-Christian before my conversion to the faith. My marriage is, nonetheless, binding upon me. It is not Sacramental, but it is not sinful.
[1 Corinthians]
{7:10} But to those who have been joined in matrimony, it is not I who commands you, but the Lord: a wife is not to separate from her husband.
{7:11} But if she has separated from him, she must remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband should not divorce his wife.
{7:12} Concerning the rest, I am speaking, not the Lord. If any brother has an unbelieving wife, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her.
{7:13} And if any woman has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce her husband.
{7:14} For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through the believing wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through the believing husband. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, whereas instead they are holy.
{7:15} But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart. For a brother or sister cannot be made subject to servitude in this way. For God has called us to peace.
{7:16} And how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
{7:17} However, let each one walk just as the Lord has distributed to him, each one just as God has called him. And thus do I teach in all the Churches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joan View Post
2)Receiving the Sacraments of the Church is not necessarily precluded to people in a natural marriage--correct or not correct? I was Confirmed and received into the Faith, and have been partaking in the Blessed Sacrament, and surely this is not a violation of Canon Law?

On the basis of the Scripture passage above, I would conclude that it is acceptable to receive the Sacraments with a natural marriage to a non-Catholic spouse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joan View Post
3)Spousal abuse is not grounds for annulment of a Sacramental Catholic marriage, is it? Divorce is not permitted for any grounds whatsoever, including adultery and abuse. Only Separation is recognized by the Church. Annulment of an invalid marriage, and separation are the only recognized Catholic options

Spousal abuse can be grounds for an annulment if the abuse indicates that the abusing spouse never consented to a true Sacrament of Marriage. Adultery can be grounds for an annulment, if it indicates that the adulterous spouse never consented to a true Sacrament of Marriage.
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  #14  
Old 20th June 2007, 02:52 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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Ron,

Does civil wedding could be considered to be a natural marriage?and
Is it a sin for the catholic couple who does not wed in the sacrament of
matrimony but had the civil wedding?

...Prayer is tenderness
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  #15  
Old 20th June 2007, 09:47 AM
Love The Fisherman
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
It is less serious when separation or divorce occurs in a natural marriage, and more serious when these occur in a Sacrament of Marriage.

Hi Ron,
I always believed that John The Baptist died upholding the dignity of Natural Marriage. Is this not so?
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  #16  
Old 20th June 2007, 11:01 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by Love The Fisherman View Post
Hi Ron,
I always believed that John The Baptist died upholding the dignity of Natural Marriage. Is this not so?
You mean because he rebuked Herod for marrying his brother's wife. That sounds right to me.
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  #17  
Old 20th June 2007, 11:02 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
Ron,

Does civil wedding could be considered to be a natural marriage?and
Is it a sin for the catholic couple who does not wed in the sacrament of
matrimony but had the civil wedding?

...Prayer is tenderness

If both persons are Catholic, it is a sin for them to marry without the Sacrament of Marriage.

A civil wedding results in a natural marriage.
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  #18  
Old 20th June 2007, 01:07 PM
CRW
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
If both persons are Catholic, it is a sin for them to marry without the Sacrament of Marriage.

A civil wedding results in a natural marriage.

Ron,

Please correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is a natural wedding is considered wrong and sinful (Catholic marriage outside the church to a non-catholic), unless they received dispensation from the Church prior to the marriage.

Cecil
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  #19  
Old 20th June 2007, 02:29 PM
Joey Joey is offline
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Ironically, this was in the news today....Senator Joe Kennedy's annulment being reversed by the Vatican.


http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...0.html?cnn=yes
__________________
"Closer to You bid me, that with Your saints I may be praising Your name, forever and ever."

Joey
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  #20  
Old 20th June 2007, 02:36 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRW View Post
Ron,

Please correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is a natural wedding is considered wrong and sinful (Catholic marriage outside the church to a non-catholic), unless they received dispensation from the Church prior to the marriage.

Cecil

A Catholic cannot marry, except in the Sacrament of Marriage. Dispensation is needed to marry a non-Catholic.

However, if two persons who are non-Catholic marry, and one later converts (but not the other), then it is my understanding that they may remain married, as St. Paul says.

The term is 'natural marriage', not 'natural wedding'.

Natural marriages are not intrinsically evil. The OT marriages were natural marriages, including that of Saints Joachim and Anne.


Ron
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