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  #111  
Old 14th July 2008, 12:28 AM
mort mort is offline
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Baptism removes original sin, except for concupiscence, that is to say, except that the body remains in a fallen state. Thus, when two baptised parents conceive a child with their fallen bodies, the child also is in the fallen state.

Also, God chooses not to give sanctifying grace at conception to the children conceived of parents who are both in a fallen state.

What is transmitted of original sin is the fallen state of the body.

This is explained in my book New Insights into the Deposit of Faith, in the chapter on original sin:
http://www.catholicplanet.com/insights/index.htm

Ron, but my understanding is original sin, and not simply its effect (concupiscence), is transmitted to children via generation. How is *original sin* passed from parents who were baptized?
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  #112  
Old 14th July 2008, 12:47 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Ron, but my understanding is original sin, and not simply its effect (concupiscence), is transmitted to children via generation. How is *original sin* passed from parents who were baptized?

Your understanding is incorrect. When we say that original sin is passed on, we mean that the fallen state is passed on (body), and that the children are not conceived in a state of grace (soul). The human person is only body and soul, so there is nothing else of original sin that can affect the descendents of Adam and Eve except the above mentioned effects on body and soul. The personal sin of Adam and Eve is not passed on, only the effects of that sin on body and soul.
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  #113  
Old 14th July 2008, 01:00 AM
daytonafreak daytonafreak is offline
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Your understanding is incorrect. When we say that original sin is passed on, we mean that the fallen state is passed on (body), and that the children are not conceived in a state of grace (soul). The human person is only body and soul, so there is nothing else of original sin that can affect the descendents of Adam and Eve except the above mentioned effects on body and soul. The personal sin of Adam and Eve is not passed on, only the effects of that sin on body and soul.

What about Spirit?
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  #114  
Old 14th July 2008, 02:03 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Spirit in the human person is nothing else but the result of the close cooperation of body and soul. So spirit is not a separate thing, as if there were a second soul-like thing.
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  #115  
Old 14th July 2008, 03:19 PM
Rob Rob is offline
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Finite creatures have a limited role in salvation, since they have limits. So for example Mary had a limited role in salvation, since she was a human being, so everyone of us has a limited role in salvation and angels as well.
Would it be correct to say that God has an unlimited role in salvation, since He is unlimited?
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  #116  
Old 14th July 2008, 04:35 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Finite creatures have a limited role in salvation, since they have limits. So for example Mary had a limited role in salvation, since she was a human being, so everyone of us has a limited role in salvation and angels as well.
Would it be correct to say that God has an unlimited role in salvation, since He is unlimited?

God is infinite, but salvation refers to created persons, all of whom are finite. The sum total of all salvation is therefore finite. God's love and mercy are infinite, and these pertain to salvation. So it depends.
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  #117  
Old 14th July 2008, 06:23 PM
mort mort is offline
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Your understanding is incorrect. When we say that original sin is passed on, we mean that the fallen state is passed on (body), and that the children are not conceived in a state of grace (soul). The human person is only body and soul, so there is nothing else of original sin that can affect the descendents of Adam and Eve except the above mentioned effects on body and soul. The personal sin of Adam and Eve is not passed on, only the effects of that sin on body and soul.

I had to bust out Dr Ludwig Ott's _Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma_ on this, and sure enough it says, "Original sin is transmitted by natural generation (De Fide)" Now my confusion is, if baptized parents have their original sin removed, how is original sin passed on via generation to their children? Concupiscence is not original sin, it might be it's consequences but it's not removed by baptism and it can't cause original sin.
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  #118  
Old 14th July 2008, 07:36 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by mort View Post
I had to bust out Dr Ludwig Ott's _Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma_ on this, and sure enough it says, "Original sin is transmitted by natural generation (De Fide)" Now my confusion is, if baptized parents have their original sin removed, how is original sin passed on via generation to their children? Concupiscence is not original sin, it might be it's consequences but it's not removed by baptism and it can't cause original sin.
Original sin is three things.
1. the sin of Adam and Eve (not transmitted)
2. the effect of original sin on the soul, loss of sanctifying grace (not transmitted, but God no longer gives sanctifying grace at the creation of the soul)
3. the effect of original sin on the body (the body is in the fallen state; this is what is transmitted)


Original sin is transmitted by natural generation
meaning that the effect of original sin on the body is transmitted:
fallen bodies beget fallen bodies

baptized parents have their original sin removed
meaning that they are given sanctifying grace

Baptism removes the effect of original sin on the soul by providing sanctifying grace. However, Baptism does not remove the effect of original sin on the body, which is that the body is in the fallen state. Thus baptism is in one sense removed, and yet is still transmitted.
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  #119  
Old 14th July 2008, 08:18 PM
mort mort is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Original sin is three things.
1. the sin of Adam and Eve (not transmitted)
2. the effect of original sin on the soul, loss of sanctifying grace (not transmitted, but God no longer gives sanctifying grace at the creation of the soul)
3. the effect of original sin on the body (the body is in the fallen state; this is what is transmitted)


Hmm, interesting explanation Ron, so does this mean:

i) Baptism only partially removes original sin?
ii) Even the baptized remain in a fallen state?
iii) God positively wills that children of baptized parents are still born without sanctifying grace? If so, doesn't this mean God wills evil (i.e. privation of good)?
iv) And just to clarify, is the "fallen state" concupiscence, or something more?
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  #120  
Old 14th July 2008, 09:54 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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i) Baptism only partially removes original sin?

Baptism remedies original sin in everything except that the body remains in the fallen state.

ii) Even the baptized remain in a fallen state?

In soul, no; in body, yes, since all the baptized die sooner or later.

iii) God positively wills that children of baptized parents are still born without sanctifying grace? If so, doesn't this mean God wills evil (i.e. privation of good)?

Yes, God wills that children conceived of baptized parents nevertheless are conceived without sanctifying grace.

There are three types of evil (privation of good):

Quote:
According to the nature of the perfection which it limits, evil is metaphysical, physical, or moral. Metaphysical evil is not evil properly so called; it is but the negation of a greater good, or the limitation of finite beings by other finite beings. Physical evil deprives the subject affected by it of some natural good, and is adverse to the well-being of the subject, as pain and suffering. Moral evil is found only in intelligent beings; it deprives them of some moral good.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm

It is not moral evil for God to require his children to seek his grace, rather than begin with it at conception. This is classified as metaphysical evil, i.e. it is an imperfection, a lack of completeness.

iv) And just to clarify, is the "fallen state" concupiscence, or something more?

When the body is in the fallen state, it is not entirely subject to the soul, but rather tends to pull the soul toward selfishness and sin (which effect of the fallen state is called concupiscence). Thus it is said that the influences on the human person toward sin are: the flesh, the world, and the devil.
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