CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group  

Go Back   CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group > Catholic Continuing Education > Teaching Series - dogmatic theology
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 13th February 2010, 04:42 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,591
Default Adam and Eve

Catholics are required to believe that Adam and Eve were two real historical persons, and that they committed the first sins of the human race, and that we are all descendents of Adam and Eve.

Pope Pius XII: "For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own."
Humani Generis, n. 37.

The denial of the historical event of original sin nullifies the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, that Mary was preserved from original sin. If there was no Adam and Eve, and they did not fall from grace, and there was no original sin in the historical sense, then Mary would not need to be preserved from inheriting it.

Jesus spoke of Adam and Eve:
[Matthew]
{19:4} And he said to them in response, “Have you not read that he who made man from the beginning, made them male and female?”

And the Epistles also mention Adam and Eve repeatedly.

Also, a number of magisterial documents refer to Christ as the new Adam, and Mary as the new Eve.

And the infallible teachings of the Council of Trent require belief in Adam and his fall from grace under penalty of anathema.

However, there are still some open theological questions about Adam and Eve, specifically which other elements are historical, and what is the meaning of each figure that is used to describe the historical event.

In my view, the story of Adam and Eve has both literal historical elements and figurative elements. We need not hold that the story is either entirely literal or entirely figurative. My opinion is that the story is an historical event described in a figurative manner. For example:

Adam and Eve were two historical human persons.
They literally were living in Paradise, and they literally sinned and lost grace.

The talking serpent is a figure for Satan.
The fruit of the tree is figurative, so the sin was not eating a piece of fruit, but pride.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 13th February 2010, 06:06 AM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,657
Default Getting people ready for the next forbidden fruit

It is a convenient prelude to sin to ignore or mock its consequences and the lessons learned from previous sin, as this situation seems to represent. It is a short step from denying the past to reliving it.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 13th February 2010, 08:12 AM
Sacredcello's Avatar
Sacredcello Sacredcello is offline
supporting member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 954
Default

Earlier this week I attended a lecture given by the "Pope's Astronomer", Brother Guy Consolmagno. His talk was extremely interesting, funny and informative about how the Church has always supported science. He joked about how, in grade school, we were all taught that Christopher Columbus "proved that the earth was round". He says that this is based on a 19th century Protestant view of there being a split between science and religion. Books such as "The Eternal War Between Science and Religion" were essentially anti-immigrant, anti-Catholic, but very popular in America then and have influenced education. An often heard concept is that "The evil Catholic Church was teaching the world was flat", etc., which, of course, was not true and that the Church has ever taught anything like this.

Here is an interview with Brother Consolmagno:

http://fora.tv/2008/03/02/Brother_Gu...od_s_Mechanics

Someone asked him about how he deals with creationists who believe that the world is only 5,000 years old. He said that these Christians have a faith that is similar to pagans. For example, the pagans believed that the Gods acted directly to cause things to happen. The crops would grow because Ceres caused them to grow. A barn burns down because Zeus sent a thunderbolt, etc., etc. Yet, he never denied the reality of Adam and Eve being two real human beings.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 13th February 2010, 12:34 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,591
Default

The ancient Greek scholars, even as far back as hundreds of years B.C. knew that the earth was round. They could also predict solar and lunar eclipses, based on this knowledge.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 13th February 2010, 04:28 PM
zouxi zouxi is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 392
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Catholics are required to believe that Adam and Eve were two real historical persons, and that they committed the first sins of the human race, and that we are all descendents of Adam and Eve.

Pope Pius XII: "For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own."
Humani Generis, n. 37.

The denial of the historical event of original sin nullifies the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, that Mary was preserved from original sin. If there was no Adam and Eve, and they did not fall from grace, and there was no original sin in the historical sense, then Mary would not need to be preserved from inheriting it.

Jesus spoke of Adam and Eve:
[Matthew]
{19:4} And he said to them in response, “Have you not read that he who made man from the beginning, made them male and female?”

And the Epistles also mention Adam and Eve repeatedly.

Also, a number of magisterial documents refer to Christ as the new Adam, and Mary as the new Eve.

And the infallible teachings of the Council of Trent require belief in Adam and his fall from grace under penalty of anathema.

However, there are still some open theological questions about Adam and Eve, specifically which other elements are historical, and what is the meaning of each figure that is used to describe the historical event.

In my view, the story of Adam and Eve has both literal historical elements and figurative elements. We need not hold that the story is either entirely literal or entirely figurative. My opinion is that the story is an historical event described in a figurative manner. For example:

Adam and Eve were two historical human persons.
They literally were living in Paradise, and they literally sinned and lost grace.

The talking serpent is a figure for Satan.
The fruit of the tree is figurative, so the sin was not eating a piece of fruit, but pride.

Ron, are we the bilogocal descendents of Adam % Eve (i;e: do we hold their biological genes and we still hold their DNA? ) ?

In other words, since adam and eve were true physical human beings, did they have biological children? and if yes, did that happened before or after their fall?

Thank you.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 13th February 2010, 05:59 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,591
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zouxi View Post
Ron, are we the bilogocal descendents of Adam % Eve (i;e: do we hold their biological genes and we still hold their DNA? ) ?

In other words, since adam and eve were true physical human beings, did they have biological children? and if yes, did that happened before or after their fall?

Thank you.

Yes, we are the biological descendents of Adam and Eve, so therefore we have their dna. They began to conceive children after the fall from grace. All human persons are descendents of Adam and Eve.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 13th February 2010, 06:04 PM
zouxi zouxi is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 392
Default

Thank you. So their first children were conceived and born outside of the garden.

Last edited by zouxi : 13th February 2010 at 07:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 13th February 2010, 06:52 PM
TheGiftOfLife
 
Posts: n/a
Default

They were born & conceived outside of the Garden.
Ron, I have always been arguing that Adam and Eve were real people just as Orthodox Jews believe and I have run across many religious who preach that it's "Just a story"

Since Adam and his descendants lives between 800-900 years and had many sons and daughters, is it correct from the Catholic prspective that they procreated with thier biological brothers and Sisters?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 13th February 2010, 08:47 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,591
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGiftOfLife View Post
Since Adam and his descendants lives between 800-900 years and had many sons and daughters, is it correct from the Catholic prspective that they procreated with thier biological brothers and Sisters?
Yes, the sons of Adam and Eve took wives from the daughters of Adam and Eve.

Concerning the morality of whom one may marry, marrying someone in the direct line of descent (parent/child or grandparent/grandchild) is intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral.

But marrying someone in the collateral line (siblings, first cousin, second cousin, third cousin, etc.) is not intrinsically evil. We are all members of the same human family, so the person that you marry is always a relative, at least distantly. Since it is not intrinsically evil, then it depends on intention and circumstances. In the circumstance that propagation of the species depended on marriage of close relations in the collateral line, and also by Divine dispensation (as I think St. Thomas taught), the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve were permitted to intermarry.

But very soon thereafter, this was no longer necessary, and so marriages of close relatives in the colateral line were no longer permitted.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 14th February 2010, 05:31 PM
Jeanne D'Arc
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks. Ron. This is really helpful!
Joan
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.