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  #21  
Old 31st December 2010, 02:40 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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10. So that we could fulfill our duty of embracing the true faith and of persevering unwaveringly in it, God, through his only begotten Son, founded the Church, and he endowed his institution with clear notes to the end that she might be recognized by all as the guardian and teacher of the revealed word.

[The Church has certain clear 'notes', i.e. attributes, that serve as proofs to the world that She is appointed by Christ to teach the teachings of God. The Church is one; there is a unity among Catholics in the world, and we are all united under one Pope, with one body of bishops, teaching one Faith. The Church is holy; not only the many Saints, but also many ordinary faithful, live lives of shining light to the world, lives of love, faith, hope. The Church is catholic; She has a universality to her teachings, which persist throughout the ages, resisting the winds of change from sinful secular society. The Church is Apostolic, having retained not only proper succession from the earliest days of the Apostles chosen by Christ, but also having retained the same teachings.]

11. To the Catholic Church alone belong all those things, so many and so marvelous, which have been divinely ordained to make for the manifest credibility of the Christian faith.

[And there are many other blessings on the world that are given by the Church, including the Sacraments, the liturgical services, the prayer life of the Church, and Her good works. These also testify that She is the body and the bride of Christ.]

12. What is more, the Church herself by reason of her astonishing propagation, her outstanding holiness and her inexhaustible fertility in every kind of goodness, by her Catholic unity and her unconquerable stability, is a kind of great and perpetual motive of credibility and an incontrovertible evidence of her own divine mission.

[By Her fruits, She is known to be the true Church.]

13. So it comes about that, like a standard lifted up for the nations, she both invites to herself those who have not yet believed, and likewise assures her sons and daughters that the faith they profess rests on the firmest of foundations.

[And all this is why Bishops and priests must be lambs without blemish, faithful imitators of Christ, who do not tolerate wolves in sheep's clothing in their midst.]

14. To this witness is added the effective help of power from on high. For, the kind Lord stirs up those who go astray and helps them by his grace so that they may come to the knowledge of the truth; and also confirms by his grace those whom he has translated into his admirable light, so that they may persevere in this light, not abandoning them unless he is first abandoned.

[The grace of God, poured out through the Church and Her Sacraments and prayers, is a Divine Witness to Her appointment as the one who teaches the teachings of God.]

15. Consequently, the situation of those, who by the heavenly gift of faith have embraced the Catholic truth, is by no means the same as that of those who, led by human opinions, follow a false religion; for those who have accepted the faith under the guidance of the Church can never have any just cause for changing this faith or for calling it into question.

[The Catholic Faith is the truest form of Christianity. Other faiths have some truth, some more, and some less. But only the Church has the fullness of truth. For her Head is Christ, and many of her members are already enjoying the Beatific Vision of God.]

This being so, giving thanks to God the Father who has made us worthy to share with the saints in light let us not neglect so great a salvation, but looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith, let us hold the unshakable confession of our hope.
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  #22  
Old 6th May 2011, 01:26 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default the teachings of Vatican I

Chapter 4.
On faith and reason


1. The perpetual agreement of the Catholic Church has maintained and maintains this too: that there is a twofold order of knowledge, distinct not only as regards its source, but also as regards its object.

[The faithful have knowledge that pertains to matters of faith, morals, and salvation from two sources: natural reason and divine faith.]

2. With regard to the source, we know at the one level by natural reason, at the other level by divine faith.

3. With regard to the object, besides those things to which natural reason can attain, there are proposed for our belief mysteries hidden in God which, unless they are divinely revealed, are incapable of being known.

[The object is the content of knowledge and its extent from each source. Faith can attain to knowledge that is beyond the reach of reason.]

Therefore, when the Apostle, who witnesses that God was known to the Gentiles from created things, comes to treat of the grace and truth which came by Jesus Christ, he declares: 'We impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glorification. None of the rulers of this age understood this. God has revealed it to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. And the Only-begotten himself, in his confession to the Father, acknowledges that the Father has hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to the little ones.'

[Some of the teachings of faith can be known by reason alone, such as that God exists, He is good, and we should worship Him. But much of the teachings of faith are entirely beyond the reach of reason, and therefore must be divinely revealed. But once they are revealed, they are not contrary to reason, and can be understood, to some extent, by reason.]
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  #23  
Old 6th May 2011, 06:58 AM
feyfifer feyfifer is offline
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THIS is why I joined this site!.....Thank you so much Ron for this..!

When we find ourselves argueing for our faith with atheists, non-catholics and others, and when we run dry of reasoning to match their rational prodding, we need to replenish our faith with the absolute certainty that only this divine revelation from omniscience could possibly sustain our continuing belief!....this in turn requires the suspension of reason and rendering ourselves like a child before god!
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  #24  
Old 6th May 2011, 12:30 PM
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But we don't suspend reason. We use reason as the assistant of faith. Faith takes a higher place that reason, but reason is not ignored or suspended.
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  #25  
Old 7th May 2011, 06:40 AM
feyfifer feyfifer is offline
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Quote:
With regard to the source, we know at the one level by natural reason, at the other level by divine faith.

Faith can attain to knowledge that is beyond the reach of reason

Ron,
Can the two contradict each other?..knowledge from reason and knowledge from faith?
In the example I gave elsewhere regarding marital relations during menstruation, how can we be certain that falliable teaching based on reason takes precedence over the inner promptings of an individual's soul?
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  #26  
Old 7th May 2011, 11:14 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feyfifer View Post
Ron,
Can the two contradict each other?..knowledge from reason and knowledge from faith?
In the example I gave elsewhere regarding marital relations during menstruation, how can we be certain that falliable teaching based on reason takes precedence over the inner promptings of an individual's soul?

The reason of fallen sinners can err. The interpretation of Divine Revelation by sinners can err. We cannot have absolute certitude in this life about every point of faith and morals.

Your conscience should be continuously formed in the light of faith and reason. Any truth properly understood by faith and reason will have no contradiction.

The Church has never taught that natural marital relations open to life is immoral due to menstruation. As long as the act is marital, unitive, and procreative, then the act has its proper moral object; it is a moral type of act.

The OT precept that you cite is not found in the NT. But in the NT (Acts 15) we find that all the OT rules and regulations are dispensed. What is not dispensed from the OT is the moral law.
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  #27  
Old 9th May 2011, 05:37 AM
feyfifer feyfifer is offline
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Okay Ron,..that certainly makes sense and thanks for the same.
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  #28  
Old 17th May 2011, 02:25 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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4. Now reason, does indeed when it seeks persistently, piously and soberly, achieve by God's gift some understanding, and that most profitable, of the mysteries, whether by analogy from what it knows naturally, or from the connection of these mysteries with one another and with the final end of humanity; but reason is never rendered capable of penetrating these mysteries in the way in which it penetrates those truths which form its proper object.

For the divine mysteries, by their very nature, so far surpass the created understanding that, even when a revelation has been given and accepted by faith, they remain covered by the veil of that same faith and wrapped, as it were, in a certain obscurity, as long as in this mortal life we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, and not by sight.

[Reason is a gift from God, and is capable of understanding the truths of faith and morals, but not as well as with faith, and not to the extent of full comprehension without faith, and, as concerns mysteries, not to the extent of full comprehension even with faith.]

5. Even though faith is above reason, there can never be any real disagreement between faith and reason, since it is the same God who reveals the mysteries and infuses faith, and who has endowed the human mind with the light of reason.

[Any apparent contradiction between faith and reason is illusory; it is only a seeming contradiction. A proper understanding of any truth in any subject area will result in no disagreement between faith and reason.]

6. God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever be in opposition to truth. The appearance of this kind of specious contradiction is chiefly due to the fact that either the dogmas of faith are not understood and explained in accordance with the mind of the Church, or unsound views are mistaken for the conclusions of reason.

[If there is an apparent contradiction, either the truth of the faith has been misunderstood, or the truth of reason is in error.]

7. Therefore we define that every assertion contrary to the truth of enlightened faith is totally false.

Since faith is above reason, when there is a conflict, after ascertaining that we have correctly interpreted the truth of faith, we must reject the claim of reason as an error.
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  #29  
Old 21st May 2011, 06:04 AM
feyfifer feyfifer is offline
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This is truly inspirational Ron...It gives me so much incentive to build up my faith and pick out the right thread of reasoning in my mind!
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  #30  
Old 3rd June 2011, 09:47 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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8. Furthermore the Church which, together with its apostolic office of teaching, has received the charge of preserving the deposit of faith, has by divine appointment the right and duty of condemning what wrongly passes for knowledge, lest anyone be led astray by philosophy and empty deceit.

[The term 'philosophy' here is meant broadly, to include all of the sciences that are based on reason alone. The deposit of faith is Tradition and Scripture. The apostolic office of teaching is the Magisterium. The Magisterium is not the Pope and the Bishops, but rather a function (office) that they exercise, as Apostles, in teaching the faithful.]

9. Hence all faithful Christians are forbidden to defend as the legitimate conclusions of science those opinions which are known to be contrary to the doctrine of faith, particularly if they have been condemned by the Church; and furthermore they are absolutely bound to hold them to be errors which wear the deceptive appearance of truth.

[This decision of the Council has been broadly rejected by many Catholics, especially Catholic scientists and scholars. Many persons promptly reject any article of faith that has even the appearance of conflict with science, including the social sciences.]

10. Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the other hand, faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds.

[We do not live by faith alone, but by faith and reason. There is a certain fundamentalism that is spreading among Catholics, in which reason has little or no place, as if our Faith were based on faith alone, not on faith and reason. The result is a disregard for speculative theology and a rejection of the use of philosophy and reason in forming theological opinions.]
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