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  #11  
Old 27th April 2010, 09:43 PM
Shane Shane is offline
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Ron,

Is it ever possible that a future Pope could nullify the teaching of Humanae Vitae, or any encyclical for that matter?
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  #12  
Old 27th April 2010, 10:52 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Ron,

Is it ever possible that a future Pope could nullify the teaching of Humanae Vitae, or any encyclical for that matter?

Any teaching which is infallible under papal infallibility, conciliar infallibility, or the infallibility of the Universal Magisterium (UM) is certainly true, and is irreformable. No Pope has the authority or ability to change or nullify such a teaching.

All other teachings of the Magisterium are non-infallible and non-irreformable, and are subject to a limited possibility of error, and a limited possibility of reform.

But the teaching of the Church that contraception is intrinsically evil is definitive and irreformable; it is infallible under the UM. So no future Pope can nullify that teaching.

However, encyclicals often contain non-infallible teachings that are subject to a limited possibility of error and reform.

Also, the theological opinions of Popes expressed in sermons, speeches, lectures, private writings, and the like are fallible and subject to error and reform, just as the opinions and writings of any theologian are.
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  #13  
Old 28th April 2010, 07:25 AM
Truthseeker Truthseeker is offline
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Any teaching which is infallible under papal infallibility, conciliar infallibility, or the infallibility of the Universal Magisterium (UM) is certainly true, and is irreformable. No Pope has the authority or ability to change or nullify such a teaching.

All other teachings of the Magisterium are non-infallible and non-irreformable, and are subject to a limited possibility of error, and a limited possibility of reform.

But the teaching of the Church that contraception is intrinsically evil is definitive and irreformable; it is infallible under the UM. So no future Pope can nullify that teaching.

However, encyclicals often contain non-infallible teachings that are subject to a limited possibility of error and reform.

Also, the theological opinions of Popes expressed in sermons, speeches, lectures, private writings, and the like are fallible and subject to error and reform, just as the opinions and writings of any theologian are.

Ron thanks for you previous answer. But how can one know for sure that the Family council is referring to the second font of morality and not to the first font of morality ? In old times perhaps the church used to refer to the marital act according to the first font, or am I wrong ?

Also another question on this topic is that the fact that Pope John Paul 1 said he was going to allow birth control means that had he done so his teaching would be rendered null by previous statements of the church since he has no authority even as a pope to change an infallible teaching? What should a catholic do in case a situation like this arises ?

Maybe thats why divine providence made this impossible by his premature death. Who knows. That's why I always used to think that maybe in the future the church will relax it's teachings on contraception. Never knew this was an infallible and irrevocable teaching !
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Last edited by Truthseeker : 28th April 2010 at 07:29 AM.
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  #14  
Old 28th April 2010, 12:38 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Ron thanks for you previous answer. But how can one know for sure that the Family council is referring to the second font of morality and not to the first font of morality ? In old times perhaps the church used to refer to the marital act according to the first font, or am I wrong ?
Intrinsic evil always refers to the second font; it is an evil moral object that makes an act intrinsically evil. This is clear from Veritatis Splendor.

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Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
Also another question on this topic is that the fact that Pope John Paul 1 said he was going to allow birth control means that had he done so his teaching would be rendered null by previous statements of the church since he has no authority even as a pope to change an infallible teaching? What should a catholic do in case a situation like this arises?
I've never heard that from any reliable source. I think that some persons hoped that he would permit it. In 2000 years no Pope has ever even attempted to nullify a previous infallible teaching. God does not permit the Pope to attempt to do so because the Pope is the rock on which the Church is founded, and the head of the Magisterium.

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Maybe thats why divine providence made this impossible by his premature death. Who knows. That's why I always used to think that maybe in the future the church will relax it's teachings on contraception. Never knew this was an infallible and irrevocable teaching !
I don't think that God needs to providentially kill the Pope to prevent him from teaching one thing or another; it would be grace that moved the Pope to teach truth and the reject error.

Members should read this interview with Germain Grisez on HV.
http://zenit.org/article-7791?l=english

Grisez: With "Humanae Vitae," Paul VI reaffirmed the constant and very firm teaching of the Church excluding contraception. I believe and have argued that teaching had already been proposed infallibly by the ordinary magisterium -- that is, by the morally unanimous agreement of the bishops of the whole world in communion with the popes. Together, they had taught for many centuries that using contraceptives always is grave matter.

Their manner of teaching implied that what they taught was a truth to be held definitively. Thus, the teaching on contraception met the conditions for infallible teaching, without a solemn definition, articulated by Vatican II in "Lumen Gentium," 25.
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  #15  
Old 28th April 2010, 02:03 PM
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Ron, all Church doctrinal teachings (which contraception is one of them) come from God and thus are unchangebale. Are all doctrines then infallible?
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  #16  
Old 28th April 2010, 02:21 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Ron, all Church doctrinal teachings (which contraception is one of them) come from God and thus are unchangebale. Are all doctrines then infallible?

A doctrine is a teaching of the Magisterium. Some doctrines are infallible; these are also called dogmas. Other doctrines are non-infallible.

Infallible doctrines are inerrant and irreformable (not changeable).

Non-infallible doctrines are subject to a limited possibility of error and of reform.
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  #17  
Old 28th April 2010, 04:17 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Germain Grisez
Fulfillment in Christ
chapter 3, p. 36:

"Since the Church is not a lawmaker in morality, it has no choice -- as legalism would suggest -- about what to teach. It must teach neither more nor less than what is true. Much of the speculation before Pope Paul VI published the encyclical Humane Vitae in 1968 centered on whether he would 'change' the Church's teaching on contraception.... Pope Paul could not more have 'changed' it than some earlier pope could have legislated it into existence. The only real alternatives to teaching moral truth are to teach moral falsehood or not to teach at all. Similarly, pastors do people no favor by 'going easy on them' -- ignoring or downplaying moral truths, as if they were rules which a pastor has the option of enforcing or not enforcing. The truly 'pastoral' thing to do is to help people see the truth and live by it."
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  #18  
Old 29th April 2010, 12:16 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Back to the topic of papal infallibility.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Ben12/B12bdeus.html
1. “the Roman Pontiff”
the document was issuse by Pope Benedict 12

2. “speaks ex cathedra” (“that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority….”)
Pope Benedict 12 states: "with apostolic authority"


3. “he defines”
"we, with apostolic authority, define the following.... Moreover we define...."

4. “that a doctrine concerning faith or morals”
The teaching in this document is on a matter of faith -- Heaven, the Beatific Vision, and also on Hell.

5. “must be held by the whole Church”
Pope Benedict 12 states: "By this Constitution which is to remain in force for ever," -- any teaching that is to remain in force forever is therefore binding on the whole Church.

Therefore, the teaching in this document, On the Beatific Vision of God, falls under papal infallibility.
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  #19  
Old 3rd May 2010, 12:47 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Does this teaching fall under papal infallibility?

"Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful." (Pope John Paul II, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, n. 4).

Why or why not?
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  #20  
Old 3rd May 2010, 02:14 PM
Shane Shane is offline
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This is an infallible teaching because the Pope is speaking ex cathedra (on behalf of the Church)

about a matter pertaining to faith and morals (women ordination)

which he defines: 'I declare',


that must be held by the entire Church: "this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."
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