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Old 7th August 2007, 05:01 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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Default Is Purgatory a Place?

Here is my article. I really dont know what to think of it, I just sat down and began to write it. Some of it is a rehash of Ron's article "Time and Eternity," and also the things I learned here. Anyone is welcome to criticize it. It really doesnt matter to me:


Heaven and Purgatory

Is Purgatory a Place?

“Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place. . .” –“Summa Theologica” Saint Thomas Aquinas

It seems Purgatory is not a Place, since it is not physical. It seems the Holy Souls in Purgatory are not in Time, since they are separated from their physical bodies. Yet Purgatory and the Holy Souls are created. All Creation of God has a beginning. With Creation has come beginning, Time and Place.

“Time is the fixed ordering and separation of events into before and after. Place is the separation and ordering of things into here and there.” –“Time and Eternity” Ronald L Conte Jr.

Only God is Uncreated, is Eternity, is Simplicity, Undivided, and so on. People say, “Human souls are simple and have no parts.” Not absolutely so, since even when separated from their bodies, they are still created beings. Time and Place in a sense divides souls even in a non-physical way. “Let us make Man to our own image and likeness.” (Gen. 1:26) The simplicity of human souls is a mere reflection of the absolute Simplicity we call God.

Purgatory is created. In Purgatory the Holy Souls experience Time in a non-physical way. The passing of Time is measured by the change they undergo. In a sequence, at one point they have atoned for fewer sins than a following point. At one point they are less like Christ than a following point. This is the before and after of Time. This is the order and separation of Time, even in a non-physical realm. By nature, a non-physical realm is higher than a physical one; therefore Time in Purgatory is beyond Time on Earth. Some call Purgatorial Time: Eviternity!

Purgatory is a non-physical place. It is not Earth, not Hell, and not Heaven. Just as New York is not Paris. They are two different things, as Purgatory is different from Hell. The difference makes them separated and ordered into here and there. Hence, Earth, Purgatory, and Hell (but not Heaven!) is a Place even in a non-physical way. The only complete way to completely understand Time and Place in Purgatory is to experience it.

In Purgatory the Holy Souls are not yet with God. This is one reason why in Sacred Scripture (which included and may still include the Limbo of the Fathers) is sometimes described as a “prison.” (1 Pet 3: 19, 20) As they atone for sins, part of the captivity is that they are still bound by natural Creation, Time, and Place. “And see if there might be in me the way of iniquity and lead me in the way of eternity.” (Ps 138: 54) More than ever they long to be with Eternity (God), but are still bound by natural Creation, Time, and Place, among other things.
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  #2  
Old 7th August 2007, 05:02 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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Default Heaven

Heaven

When a soul’s stay in Purgatory ends, he is ready for Heaven. Heaven is supernatural. By a supernatural miracle Angels and Saints are with God, see Him face to face, experience Him, and truly know Him. Heaven is created, yet it transcends all natural Creation. It is supernatural and God is present with Angels and Saints in a miraculous way. God is One and everywhere/when. He is Eternity, beyond Time and Place, therefore present at all times, and all places. He is present, since He is beyond presence. God indwells a soul in the state of grace in a greater way than His everywhere/when presence. Christ is God. Christ is wholly ascended of Heaven with God, and He is wholly present on Earth in the Holy Eucharist. Yet a Saint of Heaven with God is with Him in a supernatural, miraculous, mysterious, and deeper way. This gift transcends all natural Creation, and all natural powers without exception. The miraculous ability to intuitively see God face to face, and know Him is called the Light of Glory. (Rev 22:5). This supernatural ability is the greatest gift given to Angels and Saints by the power and love of God.

Although Heaven is created, it is also Timeless and Placeless, since it is with God. Saints experience Timelessness and Placelessnes, since they are with God, who is Eternity (beyond Time and Place.) The First Heaven ends at the General Judgment when all souls will rise, will be reunited with their bodies, and will be judged by Christ as either worthy of the Second Heaven, or worthy of the Second Hell (Rev 21:1). Another way to describe the endless sufferings of the damned is that they will be trapped in mere natural Creation; eternally experiencing mere Time and Place—with the thought they could have had it all.

“So it is also with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown in corruption shall rise to incorruption. What is sown in dishonor shall rise to glory. What is sown in weakness shall rise to power. What is sown with an animal body shall rise with a spiritual body. If there is an animal body, there is also a spiritual one . . . So what is, at first, not spiritual, but animal, next becomes spiritual. The first man, being earthly, was of the earth; the second man, being heavenly, will be of heaven. Such things as are like the earth are earthly; and such things as are like the heavens are heavenly . . . Now I say this, brothers, because flesh and blood is not able to possess the kingdom of God; neither will what is corrupt possess what is incorrupt. Behold, I tell you a mystery. Certainly, we shall all rise again, but we shall not all be transformed . . .” (Cor. 15: 42-51)

The new resurrected and glorified bodies of the Saints are befitting for the New Heaven. These glorified bodies are a mystery. Some have speculated on the qualities of a glorified body based on the passages of Christ after His Resurrection and other passages of Sacred Scripture. I speculate the glorified bodies will be given a miraculous quality of timelessness and placelessness, since the whole Saint (glorified: soul-body-spirit) will be of Timeless and Placeless Heaven, with God. I think this miraculous quality will be given to the glorified bodies of the Saints in spite of the fact that they will retain their flesh, bones, blood, organs, etc. “Let us make Man to our image and likeness.” The timeless and placeless quality of the glorified body of a Saint is a mere reflection of God, who is Eternity. It is a share in the timelessness and placelessness Jesus and Mary experience with God in Heaven. For, the Saints, being with God, seeing Him, and knowing Him fulfills the desire of their souls. And the Timeless and Placeless quality of Heaven fulfills the ordinate and legitimate cravings of their bodies. Happiness, peace, rest, joy, sublimity, and as Jesus and Mary surely know: so much more. My words are faint echoes. And now I think of men who are addicted to drugs. I think it is important to show them compassion and mercy, since their drug induces in their souls and bodies a false type of Timeless and Placeless Heaven. A pseudo experience of God. A false spiritual high which God alone may completely fulfill.

The Saints and Angels of Heaven are not with God as He is with Himself. They do not see God, experience Him, or know Him as He does Himself. He is always beyond His beautiful creations. He is God. Father-Son-Spirit. The Triune God is eternally alone, yet not alone but also together with the Angels and Saints. A mystery beyond complete human understanding.
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Old 7th August 2007, 05:04 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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Default Is Purgatory a Midpoint between Heaven and Earth?

Is Purgatory a Midpoint between Heaven and Earth?

It seems Purgatory is a midpoint between Heaven and Earth. And, metaphorically speaking it is. Purgatory is a true non-physical Place, and the Holy Souls pass through non-physical Time. Yet created Heaven with Eternal God is Timeless and Placeless. Heaven is not of the natural-created-physical Universe, nor is it of the natural-created-non-physical realms. To think if science had the technology to travel by ship throughout the whole Universe, and eventually find Heaven and see Jesus and Mary living in Heaven is absurd. An angel or soul can travel in a non-physical realm, e.g. a Holy Soul in Purgatory can travel from a lower part to a higher part as he undergoes change. Yet even an Angel or Holy Soul traveling in a non-physical realm cannot stumble upon Heaven.

No. There is no midpoint between Heaven and Earth, Heaven and Purgatory, or Heaven and Hell. Heaven is Timeless and Placeless. The only analogy I can come up with for the realm of Heaven is that it is cloaked. Think of a spaceship in a science fiction film which possesses a cloaking device. It exists, it is a creation, yet no man can see it or locate it on radar. A spaceship with a cloaking device is beyond a spaceship without one. A limited analogy.

Heaven exists, it is created, yet it cannot be seen by men in the physical universe, nor angels and separated souls in the non-physical realms. Heaven is a supernatural Creation with God in a miraculous and mysterious way. Heaven transcends all natural Creation, Time, and Place. I do not know what else to write, since it is a mystery beyond complete human understanding.
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  #4  
Old 7th August 2007, 05:04 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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Default Do the Holy Souls in Purgatory gradually ascend to Heaven?

It seems the Holy Souls gradually ascend to Heaven. And, metaphorically I suppose they do. Yet the Holy Souls are still in natural Creation. In a non-physical realm, they are still in a Time, and at a Place. They are holy. Holiness is none other than being out from, apart from, separate from, and better yet, beyond the natural-created Earth and natural created non-physical realms. Holiness to a degree certainly can be attained on Earth, yet it is greater and different in Purgatory. All the Holy Souls are either formally or non-formally baptized, are in the state of grace, and are judged by God worthy of Heaven at the particular judgment. Still, the Holy Souls need to be purified, and need to atone for the temporal punishment of sins committed on Earth. Some men actually begin their Purgatory on Earth! But God who is Mercy, Justice, Wisdom, Love, and more; He created Purgatory. The Holy Souls change and become like Christ.

At the final point, every Holy Soul in Purgatory is ready for Heaven. When a Holy Soul is ready for Heaven he must face the inevitable: Timeless and Placeless Heaven with God. Saint Catherine of Genoa once said, “Heaven has no gates.” This is true. One cannot walk, run, leap, drive, fly, or travel in a non-physical way to Heaven. The only way to be of Heaven is by a miraculous and supernatural gift of God. The only way I can explain it, is at one moment the Holy Soul is still stuck in natural Creation, Time, and Place, then in a flash is of Timeless and Placeless Heaven with God. Like a light bulb, one moment off and at the speed of electricity suddenly on. Instantaneous. How does this happen?

“Jesus said to her: “Do not touch me. For I have not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brothers and tell them: ‘I am ascending to my Father and to your Father, to my God and to your God.’ ” (John 20: 17)

The Ascension of Christ is the cause of the ascension of the Saints. Christ accomplished this for the Saints by His Death, Resurrection, and Ascension. And God is well pleased to receive the Saints, since He was and is well pleased to receive Christ, the Saint of saints, who truly lives in His Saints.

Are the Saints assumed into Heaven or ascended into Heaven? The answer is yes and yes. They are assumed in a supernatural instantaneous flash since the power of God gives them this supernatural ability by way of Christ. In this way they are assumed into Heaven. Yet they also freely and actively participate in the Ascension of Christ by way of their own ascension. I think God gives them the supernatural ability to ascend from natural Creation, Time, and Place to Timeless and Placeless Heaven with Him. The reason I think this is right is that God gives Saints the supernatural and miraculous ability to see Him face to face, know Him, and experience Him. And so He also gives them the supernatural and miraculous ability to cross natural Creation to supernatural Creation. To cross Time and Place to Timeless and Placeless Heaven. I call this the Transcendent Miracle, or better yet the Ascendant Miracle. A man on Earth with the grace of God, freely cooperating with sanctifying grace is the beginning and foreshadowing of a Saint participating with the Ascendant Miracle and Light of Glory.

And so finally, one in Heaven is completely holy. He truly is separate, apart from, and beyond Earth, and all mere natural Creation, Time, and Place. The holiness begun on Earth and continued in Purgatory is completed and perfected in supernatural Heaven with God. And all the highest pursuits begun by men on Earth, such as theology, philosophy, poetry, science, art, music, and yes the greatest pursuits of all, namely, holiness and contemplation of God is completed, perfected, and fulfilled with God in Heaven.

And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. And death shall be no more. And neither mourning, nor crying out, nor grief shall be anymore. For the first things have passed away.” (Rev. 21:4)

August 7, 2007
Nicholas J. Corrao
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  #5  
Old 7th August 2007, 05:05 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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This stuff is speculative as far as I know I havent fallen into heresy if so let me know
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  #6  
Old 9th August 2007, 12:13 PM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
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Default Nothing is in the bag, that's for sure....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Climacus Areopagite View Post
This stuff is speculative as far as I know I havent fallen into heresy if so let me know

I have spoken with Conchita of Garabandal a few times and she told me that she spends much of her time trying to save her soul. I expected her to say "save souls", but I guess she meant starting with her. Anyway, my impression was if someone who has seen Mary is worried about perdition, we better not be complacent.
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Old 9th August 2007, 03:03 PM
CRW
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Climacus Areopagite View Post
The First Heaven ends at the General Judgment when all souls will rise, will be reunited with their bodies, and will be judged by Christ as either worthy of the Second Heaven, or worthy of the Second Hell (Rev 21:1).

My understanding of Church teachings is that those who are in Heaven or Purgatory (spirit) will be judged (reunited with their bodies) only in the light to show our Lord's justice. One cannot go from the first Heaven to Hell. If this is not what you meant then I am sorry for not reading it correctly.

Cecil
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Old 9th August 2007, 04:07 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRW View Post
My understanding of Church teachings is that those who are in Heaven or Purgatory (spirit) will be judged (reunited with their bodies) only in the light to show our Lord's justice. One cannot go from the first Heaven to Hell. If this is not what you meant then I am sorry for not reading it correctly.

Cecil

Good point I didnt mean it like that, maybe I should reword it.
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Old 10th August 2007, 12:32 AM
js1975 js1975 is offline
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nice article. I think it is a piece that takes time to contemplate.... Good work.

-jay
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2cor 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, most beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God.
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Old 16th August 2007, 04:35 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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Last night I realized I was short sighted on a few points I make in this article so, I'll expand it. I also came up with another question:

Is there fire in Purgatory?
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