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  #11  
Old 2nd April 2007, 01:52 PM
Nathan
 
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Default Papal Infallibility Again

Ron,

How, in your mind, does the charisma of papal infallibility relate to the ecumenical consensus?
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  #12  
Old 2nd April 2007, 03:06 PM
js1975 js1975 is offline
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Theologians cannot agree, and the Magisterium has not defined, which teaching fall under papal infallibility, which under the infallibility of Councils (although this point is more clear than the others), and which under the infallibility of the universal Magisterium.

This is a bit disheartening to me. How then, can someone like myself determine what to believe for myself and what has or has not been taught infallibly?
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  #13  
Old 2nd April 2007, 03:55 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by js1975 View Post
This is a bit disheartening to me. How then, can someone like myself determine what to believe for myself and what has or has not been taught infallibly?

Catholics are required to believe both the infallible dogmas and the non-infallible doctrines of the Church. The Catechism is not infallible, but it is still a reliable guide to the teachings of the Church.


Ron
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  #14  
Old 2nd April 2007, 03:57 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
Ron,

How, in your mind, does the charisma of papal infallibility relate to the ecumenical consensus?

The Pope teaches from the truths found, not only in Scripture as it is written, but in Scripture as it is lived by all the faithful, and from the truths found, not only in Tradition as it is present in the past, but also in Tradition as it is being lived by all the faithful. So, for example, in defining the Assumption, the Pope cited the prayers of the Rosary of many generations of the faithful in support of this true dogma.

But formally, once a Pope exercises papal infallibility, there is no need for any consensus; the Pope draws beforehand from the faithful in order to teach, but once he teaches it is not subject to consensus.
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  #15  
Old 2nd April 2007, 04:13 PM
Nathan
 
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Ron,

is this the meaning of the Vat I teaching that the pope is infallible "from himself, and not from the consensus of the Church?" If so, are ecumenical councils thereby rendered unnecessary?
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  #16  
Old 2nd April 2007, 04:19 PM
Nathan
 
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What I mean is this: the Church has always had a tradition of defining dogmas via ecumenical councils. If the pope can unilaterally do so, in what circumstances is this preferable to an ecumenical council, and vice versa? Are these redundant functions within the Church, or do each have a proper role and a specially positioned function for the edification of the Body?
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  #17  
Old 2nd April 2007, 05:16 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
What I mean is this: the Church has always had a tradition of defining dogmas via ecumenical councils. If the pope can unilaterally do so, in what circumstances is this preferable to an ecumenical council, and vice versa? Are these redundant functions within the Church, or do each have a proper role and a specially positioned function for the edification of the Body?

Since the Pope does not teach from his own mind, but from the teachings
in Tradition and Scripture, which are lived by all the faithful, but primarily
taught by the Bishops, he must draw these truths from the Church in
order to teach them. Therefore, if there is a theological controversy,
and he has not yet arrived at the answer from Tradition and Scripture,
he consults the living Tradition in the body of the Bishops (who often
consult with persons in their own dioceses) so as to arrive at the truth
by a process.

These two types of infallibility are somewhat redundant in the sense that
any truth of the Faith might be taught by either, yet both are useful.

It does edify the faithful to have their Bishops arrive at the truth under
the leadership of the Pope.
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  #18  
Old 3rd April 2007, 06:37 AM
Justin Angel Justin Angel is offline
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Cool Infallible - non-Infallible

Catholics are obliged to believe all that is taught infallibly by the Sacred Magisterium with a full assent
of faith ('fides divina'). There must be no room for dissenting from the belief in the Immaculate Conception
or in the sinfulness of abortion on demand. Catholics are also obliged to believe in the non-infallible
teachings of the Ordinary Magesterium, but with a different type or degree of assent, known as religious
assent ('obsequium religiosum'). Is the latter assent more an act of obedience ? For instance, I
know Catholics who claim to accept the Church's position on celibacy and her opposition to female ordination,
without active protest, but personally they feel that priests should be allowed to marry and that women
should be ordained as priests. Perhaps we are not required to share in the Church's traditional non-infallible
beliefs, but expected to nonetheless, apart from making every effort to accept wholeheartedly what the
Church teaches concerning these doctrines. I assume these are non-infallible teachings concerning Holy Orders.
I invite Ron and all of you to comment by what you understand of this subject.
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  #19  
Old 3rd April 2007, 09:19 AM
Padraig
 
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Cool

It sounds a bit like a sergeant major, he has various tones of voice, when he is in 'LISTEN UP' YOU'D BETTER LISTEN.
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  #20  
Old 3rd April 2007, 12:04 PM
St. Thomas More St. Thomas More is offline
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Default Contraception

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Catholics are required to believe both the infallible dogmas and the non-infallible doctrines of the Church. Ron

Ron, what are the sources and reasoning to support the claim that it is an infallible teaching that the use of artificial contraception is sinful? I understand that a few papal encyclicals have addressed this - Casti Connubi and Humana Vitae. But is there any other authority? Prior Church teachings or supporting verses from Scripture? Or is that not necessary?

-- St. Thomas More
"The King's Good Servant, but God's First"
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