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  #1  
Old 30th May 2009, 02:14 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default the real Theology of the Body

Let's spend some time each week discussing Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body lecture series. There are 129 lectures available online here:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM

I suggest that we read and discuss one lecture each on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Then the discussion on those three lectures can continue into the weekdays. On the next weekend, Fri, Sat, Sun, we'll read three more lectures. This should take less than a year to complete the series.

For this weekend, let's just discuss the lectures in general.

1. this lecture series is the private theology of John Paul 2, not an act of the Magisterium; as such his thoughts are subject to scholarly criticism and to the possibility of error.

2. I've already read much of the lecture series, and it is disturbing how different the actual Theology of the Body (TOB) series is from the popularized version of TOB in the work of West and others. It seems to me that they are often using Pope John Paul as a way to promote their own ideas and errors. This is not unlike the approach whereby people use Vatican II as an excuse for various ideas and errors that were never expressed by that Council.

3. This lecture series began as a series of talks on man and women as understood through the book of Genesis:
Original Unity of Man and Woman
"Catechesis on the Book of Genesis"
(1979-1980)

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo...esis/index.htm

The last lecture, in 1984, is described by EWTN this way:
"In his General Audience of 28 November 1984, the Holy Father concluded his four-year catechesis on Theology of the Body with a summary of his conclusions. His catechesis was divided into two parts: the first was a study of Christ's words on marriage and their implications for the redemption of the body, and the second, an analysis of the sacramentality of marriage as presented in Ephesians 5, with added insights from Humanae Vitae."
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Old 30th May 2009, 08:35 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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I'll try to keep up. If anything I will at least read your notes or read and comment on a particular lecture here and there.

thanks.
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  #3  
Old 30th May 2009, 08:50 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
The last lecture, in 1984, is described by EWTN this way:
"In his General Audience of 28 November 1984, the Holy Father concluded his four-year catechesis on Theology of the Body with a summary of his conclusions. His catechesis was divided into two parts: the first was a study of Christ's words on marriage and their implications for the redemption of the body, and the second, an analysis of the sacramentality of marriage as presented in Ephesians 5, with added insights from Humanae Vitae."

Notice that, although Pope John Paul II coined the term Theology of the Body, his lecture series was based on Scripture, especially Genesis and Ephesians, as well as on Humanae Vitae. By comparison, the popularized version of TOB is full of immodest and secular language, and has no firm basis in a theological analysis of Scripture.

West's work in particular lacks a firm theological framework. As a result, when the Magisterium does not have a particular explicit teaching on one point or another, he is lost and cannot find the truth; he defaults to rhetoric, pleasing his listeners, and an analogy between sex and spirituality that exalts the former and profanes the latter.
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Old 31st May 2009, 02:31 PM
sammy sammy is offline
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I have less of an interest in TOB, but I will follow along.
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Old 1st June 2009, 12:38 AM
The Pines The Pines is offline
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Default Theology of The Body

Quote:
it is disturbing how different the actual Theology of the Body (TOB) series is from the popularized version of TOB in the work of West and others. It seems to me that they are often using Pope John Paul as a way to promote their own ideas and errors. This is not unlike the approach whereby people use Vatican II as an excuse for various ideas and errors that were never expressed by that Council.

A young priest, at our parish, began a series of classes on TOB and required the purchase of West's edition. When I asked why not the original, he said that it was too difficult for most people. I asked if that wasn't like "dumbing down" in our school systems. Needless to say, he asked me to leave.

I couldn't agree with you more, Ron, on the different "interpretation" of the Pope's words. If we can't understand something after reading it twice, or three times if need be, we should seek help not change the words.
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Old 1st June 2009, 03:44 AM
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Sacredcello Sacredcello is offline
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I would like to read the original talks and will try to keep up in this discussion. In light of the fact that some authors are using these talks to suit their own purposes, and are misleading others, I would like to go to the primary source.
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Old 3rd June 2009, 07:09 PM
St. Thomas More St. Thomas More is offline
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What is the difference between the two creation accounts, referred to in the first lectures?
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Old 3rd June 2009, 09:03 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by St. Thomas More View Post
What is the difference between the two creation accounts, referred to in the first lectures?

We will cover that question as we go along.
I'm suggesting that we read three lectures a week, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.
And then we can continue discussing, and members can get caught up, on the remaining days of the week.

So this week, let's read:

1. Of the Unity and Indissolubility of Marriage
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb1.htm

2. Biblical Account of Creation Analysed
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb2.htm

3. The Second Account of Creation: The Subjective Definition of Man
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb3.htm
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Old 3rd June 2009, 09:13 PM
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I've been reading JPII's lectures on Theology of the Body, very interesting.

I particularly don't have questions on the 3 first lectures so far, but I'll definitely post as we go along.
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