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  #1  
Old 14th May 2009, 12:15 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default marital sexual ethics

There is a polish priest who has written a book (in Polish) on sexuality and marriage. The information that is available about the book indicates that it teaches ideas contrary to Catholic ethics.

"Every act a type of caress, a sexual position with the goal of arousal is permitted and pleases God," Knotz writes. "During sexual intercourse, married couples can show their love in every way, can offer one another the most sought after caresses. They can employ manual and oral stimulation."
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...kojSAD985A4301

Notice that he justifies any and all sexual acts without exception, as long as these have the goal of arousal. These sexual acts are the means to the end of arousal (or of sexual climax). He is saying that the end justifies the means, in direct contradiction to definitive Catholic teaching.

In any other area of morality, this idea that the end justifies the means would be soundly rejected by most Catholics. But for some reason, many persons tend to use a different set of ethical principles regarding sexuality, so as to justify what is clearly sinful.

He also uses the same approach that I've read in other sources, which is merely to state his conclusion, with no theological argument. He merely states, they can do this, and they can do that. He knows that he is saying what his audience wants to hear, and so he does not bother with a theological argument. And they accept it because it justifies their sins.

The claim that God is pleased whenever we do what pleases ourselves is not consistent with Catholic ethical teachings in any area of life. It is an absurd claim, which we all know to reject. But when it concerns sexual ethics, many Catholics are willing to accept any rationalization in order to justify what pleases them.

Unnatural sexual acts (manual sex, oral sex, anal sex) are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral, regardless of whether these acts are consummated (completed in climax) or not, because the moral object does not depend upon the completion of the act.

Such acts are not justified by the intended end of natural marital relations because the end does not justify the means.
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Old 14th May 2009, 01:47 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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After seen what is happening with priest and their scandals (child molestors, having sexual relationships with women as an ex Bishop in Paraguay and now the current president of that country), and now this priest comments in his book; I wonder if there is something wrong in the Seminaries or if there is people within the Church dedicated to sin who is misleading the flock.

It is said that Pope Paul VI said "The smoke of satan has entered the Church", if this what he indeed said, then it's serious, coming from the Vicar of Christ.
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Old 14th May 2009, 02:51 PM
ExCelciuS ExCelciuS is offline
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I think the enemy try a new method to destroy the Church of Christ, the attack is not from the outside, but from inside, so what is the most general weak point of catholic priest as a human being? It's their concupiscence.
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Old 14th May 2009, 04:04 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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[2 Timothy 4]
{4:1} I testify before God, and before Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead through his return and his kingdom:
{4:2} that you should preach the word urgently, in season and out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke, with all patience and doctrine.
{4:3} For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine, but instead, according to their own desires, they will gather to themselves teachers, with itching ears,
{4:4} and certainly, they will turn their hearing away from the truth, and they will be turned toward fables.
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Old 14th May 2009, 08:48 PM
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I can't wait for the JPII's English edition of the "Rule for Married Couples" book, I'm pretty sure it'll be of great benefit.
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  #6  
Old 14th May 2009, 11:28 PM
TheGiftOfLife
 
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Where do these priests come from?

How does he completely look over sodomy which is clearly stated in the Bible.
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Old 15th May 2009, 11:51 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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natural intercourse is immoral outside of marriage, but moral within marriage, because the moral law requires sexual relations to be

(1) marital
(2) unitive
(3) procreative

natural relations outside of marriage has only the unitive and procreative meanings; also the fullness of the unitive meaning includes marital union, which is lacking; and the fullness of the procreative meaning includes procreation within marriage (so that the children are raised by two parents).

Whenever any one meaning is lacking, the other meanings, even when present, are harmed. Contraception harms the unitive and marital meanings. Unnatural sexual acts, which are inherently non-procreative and non-unitive (in the proper sense of the word), also harm the marital meaning.

Concerning unnatural sexual acts within marriage:

[Mark 10]
{10:6} But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female.
{10:7} Because of this, a man shall leave behind his father and mother, and he shall cling to his wife.
{10:8} And these two shall be one in flesh. And so, they are now, not two, but one flesh.
{10:9} Therefore, what God has joined together, let no man separate.

Do you think that when Christ himself described the husband and wife becoming one flesh, and being joined together by God, that he meant that the became one by an unnatural act? But creation is the definition of natural. From the beginning of Creation, God designed man and woman to be joined by the natural marital act. Marriage is essential to this act because God began the human race by creating only one man and only one woman, such that they would procreate to produce the human race.

Also, the reason that natural sexual relations outside of marriage is intrinsically evil is that it is non-marital. But unnatural sexual relations is intrinsically evil because it is non-procreative and non-unitive, therefore unnatural relations within marriage is not justified by the marriage.
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Old 15th May 2009, 01:32 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Also, the reason that natural sexual relations outside of marriage is intrinsically evil is that it is non-marital.

Ron,

When you are speaking about natural sexual relations outside marriage in the above quote, you mean intercourse and caressing that go beyond a simple kiss, right?....

Natural caressing, hugging or kissing in the mouth, even "french kissing" is allowed outside of marriage until certain point and therefore, non intrinsically evil (I'm talking about an engagement period, pre-marriage), is that right too?...
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Old 15th May 2009, 01:41 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother View Post
Ron,

When you are speaking about natural sexual relations outside marriage in the above quote, you mean intercourse and caressing that go beyond a simple kiss, right?....

Natural caressing, hugging or kissing in the mouth, even "french kissing" is allowed outside of marriage until certain point and therefore, non intrinsically evil (I'm talking about an engagement period, pre-marriage), is that right too?...

Natural sexual relations refers to genital-to-genital intercourse.

Caressing, hugging, kissing, french kissing are not considered sexual acts per se because they are non-genital. Such acts are not intrinsically evil, but in order to be moral the intention and circumstances must be good. My opinion is that engaged couples may do some non-sexual acts which are arousing but which are also not directed at sexual climax. But the mere fact that an act is not intrinsically evil does not necessarily mean that the act is moral. All three fonts must be good.
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  #10  
Old 15th May 2009, 03:45 PM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
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Default Trying to clarify this issue a bit more....

You say that to be moral sexual acts must be marital, unitive and procreative. Suppose one member of a married couple becomes incapable of procreation through no fault of his or her own. In such cases, the married couple engaging in sexual relations will be having the marital part and not trying to stop the procreative part but knowing it cannot possibly occur.

Now, in such cases, the only missing element is the unitive part, which I guess would be the determinative factor in whether and how this couple may engage in relations. I believe you have previously stated that such a couple may engage in sexual activity, so exactly what would constitute a moral unitive element in order for their sexual activity to be acceptable?

Can I assume that any efforts the couple makes to enable normal genital to genital contact in the future would be moral since they would be seeking to enable this acceptable form of relations?
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