CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group  

Go Back   CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group > Catholicism > Controversies about Catholicism
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 27th December 2006, 12:22 AM
little boots
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I say again...the Church is either Pro-life or it isn't. There is no fence sitting possible. To stand by while peoples lives are extinguished at the whim of this or that governor it to be complicit with the act itself. If Church teaching is in error, than it is in error. Moral truth speaks for itself.


I assume this post will be deleted as well...so be it.

peace.

What happened to Rons comment (which precipitated my responce)? If your going to chastise me do so in full view. : )

Last edited by little boots : 27th December 2006 at 12:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 27th December 2006, 12:31 AM
cocatholic
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by little boots View Post
I say again...the Church is either Pro-life or it isn't. There is no fence sitting possible. To stand by while peoples lives are extinguished at the whim of this or that governor it to be complicit with the act itself. If Church teaching is in error, than it is in error. Moral truth speaks for itself.


I assume this post will be deleted as well...so be it.

peace.

Let me ask you a question. In WWII should Hitler have been allowed to extinguish the Jews and Christians harboring the Jews? Or should someone rise up against such hatred and feel an obligation to end it? What about being Pro-Life for the scum of the Earth trying to snuff out God's chosen people? By attacking Axis forces albeit with casualties, isn't that preserving the Jewish lives saved?

What about the people in Africa being beheaded for not converting to Islam?
Who is being PRO-LIFE for them? There must be an allowance in scripture that allows us to defend the helpless when diplomacy fails. If we don't, then we ourselves are no longer "PRO-LIFE". This term (pro-life) is only absolute in the "non-negotables".
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 27th December 2006, 12:44 AM
little boots
 
Posts: n/a
Default

there is a difference between so called "just war" and capital punishment.
Had Adolf Hitler been captured, jailed, tried and found guilty of the crimes that i'm sure we all agree he was guilty of, I would be opposed to his being condemned to death. There is always the possibility of his repentance and conversion through the years of his incarceration until his natural death. The same with Mcvey, Stalin. Mao, Pol Pot, Bin Laden, Bush...who ever.

"You will seek the Lord your God with all your heart, soul mind and strenght. And love your neighbor as yourself...this is the LAw and the prophets." In these words Jesus summerized the old and new testaments. Death by revenge is not an option.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 27th December 2006, 02:28 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,765
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by little boots View Post
I say again...the Church is either Pro-life or it isn't. There is no fence sitting possible. To stand by while peoples lives are extinguished at the whim of this or that governor it to be complicit with the act itself. If Church teaching is in error, than it is in error. Moral truth speaks for itself.


I assume this post will be deleted as well...so be it.

peace.

What happened to Rons comment (which precipitated my responce)? If your going to chastise me do so in full view. : )

I'm removing you from this group because you reject the ability and authority of the Church to teach moral truths without error.

My comments which precipitated your response are on the previous page (p. 2). At my discretion, I may delete posts which promote heresy.

The Church is pro-life, but it is also pro-justice and pro-mercy. When a person convicted of very serious crimes is put to death,
it is justice toward that criminal, but it is mercy toward the victims of that crime and toward future possible victims.
Life is not the most important thing in this world; if it were then the Church would not beatify martyrs.




Ron Conte
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 27th December 2006, 02:39 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,765
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cocatholic View Post
I'm with little boots in the sense that capital punishment is wrong on the grounds that ending a life that is not mine to take is a big "NO NO"....

The Church definitively teaches that capital punishment is not always wrong, but rather it depends upon the circumstances.

Capital punishment is not something that the ordinary individual would be called upon to carry out. It is carried out by a government, typically by the judicial branch of government, i.e. by the court system and the justice system. So you are right that the life is not yours to take.

However, the belief that capital punishment is always immoral, regardless of circumstances is an heretical belief.


Ron Conte
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 27th December 2006, 03:17 PM
logue
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ron, I tend to agree with you on this however, everytime someone in my state (Florida) is to be executed we get a letter from the USCCB stuffed into our bulletin about opposing the death penalty. Also, what about Sister Helen Prejean of "Dead Man Walking" fame. She is obviously against the death penalty in all circumstances. Is she heretical in her cause or is she just dissenting?


As far as I'm concerned, I think the death penalty is too good for some of these creeps. I think they should sit in solitary confinement eating peanut butter sandwiches for meals and doing very hard work with no phone, TV, newspaper, or radio for the rest of their lives. I suppose that's not very merciful and not at all Christian.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 27th December 2006, 04:14 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,765
Default

I don't know what Sister Helen Prejean's view is on the death penalty.

The Bishops do not teach that the death penalty is always wrong, but they say that in the current circumstances it is not necessary and can be put aside in favor of other options. They do not teach that the death penalty is always immoral, or intrinsically evil, or never justifiable.


Ron
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 30th December 2006, 04:53 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,765
Default

As administrator of this little group, I have a certain small responsibility to moderate the discussion about the Catholic faith. This is not any discussion group about any topic. It is specifically for Catholics about Catholicism. Members are permitted to disagree with my personal opinions about the Catholic Faith. However, it would be a sin for me to permit the promotion of heresy and the promotion of an attitude of complete disregard for the teaching authority of the Church.

The Church has always taught that taking a life is not always immoral (e.g. self-defense, capital punishment, just war). This has been the teaching of the Church from its earliest days. It was also the teaching of Saint Augustine, of Saint Thomas Aquinas, and many others.

The idea that respect for life should be preeminent contradicts the teaching of the Catholic Faith. God is First, so respect for human life must be ordered according to the will of God. Respect for human life must not be elevated above all else in a kind of idolatry.

In the media, there have been reports claiming that the Church teaches that capital punishment is always wrong. Such media claims about Church teaching are not true. In fact, the Church has always taught that there are some circumstances in which the taking of human life is morally permissible. This teaching is infallible under the ordinary and universal magisterium of the Church. And it is required belief of all Catholics.

This has nothing to do with my personal opinions. I only believe this because it is what the Church teaches. I learned it from the Church.

Now an individual Catholic may choose not to take a life even in self-defense, for Christ did not defend himself. But no Catholic may believe that killing in self-defense is never moral. An individual Catholic may prefer other options to the death penalty in particular circumstances. But no Catholic may believe that the use of the death penalty is alway immoral. An individual Catholic may refuse to fight in any war, preferring prayer and self-denial as a way to defend his fellow citizens against injustice. But no Catholic may believe that capital punishment is always immoral.

I am concerned for the souls of all those Catholics throughout the world who will soon be put to the test during the great apostasy. Most Catholics will fall away from the true Catholic Church at that time. And what is this test? Merely the requirement to believe definitive Church teaching on matters of faith and morals.

Soon no one will be permitted to receive the Eucharist, if he or she rejects any definitive teaching of the Church.


Choose according to eternal Wisdom, and not according to your own bright and shinning ideas.


Ron Conte
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 30th December 2006, 05:46 PM
needDivineMercy needDivineMercy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 161
Default Great Post

Ron,
Great Post - clear as a bell. I must admit that I often buy into the media's depiction of the Catholic faith - I should consult the Catechism more often.

Any ideas how to help others choose wisely....I am concerned about my parents and wife who differ with the Church on artificial concraception.

Thank you
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 30th December 2006, 06:12 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,765
Default

Church teaching against contraception is very clear.
I'm not sure how you could convince your family members;
maybe by emphasizing the advantages of NFP.

Perhaps your wife would agree to take a course with you in NFP
from the diocese.


Ron
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.