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  #1  
Old 19th April 2007, 11:59 PM
AI2001
 
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Default Genesis: Isaac v Ishmael

Ron,

I was confronted with this a few months ago, how does one respond to such arguments?

Quote:
READ THE FOLLOWING PASSAGES FROM THE BIBLE AS IT HAS IMPLICATIONS ON THE WAR AGAINST TERROR/ISLAM and the claim of Israel that god gave them the land. If the child is an infant than the Judeo-Christian version becomes null and void and we are wasting our time and resources i.e. we could save trillions of dollars and create a more peaceful world rather than fighting against Islam the religion of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them all).

The COVENANT with Abraham and his DESCENDANTS is central to JUDAISM/CHRISTIANITY/ISLAM.

Please note this is not a competition between faiths but an attempt to decipher fact from fiction.

Genesis 21:14 Contemporary English version

Early the next morning Abraham gave Hagar an animal skin full of water and some bread. Then he put the boy on her shoulder and sent them away.

GENESIS 16:16
And Hagar bore Abram a son; and Abram called the name of his son, whom Hagar bore, Ish’mael. Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ish’mael to Abram.
GENESIS 21:5
Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him.

At Genesis 22 Abraham had only 2 sons others came later. The Quran mentions that it was Ishmael that was sacrificed hence the reference in genesis 22:2 your only son can only mean someone has substituted Ishmael names for Isaac!!

BY DOING SOME KINDERGARTEN ARITHMATIC USING ARABIC NUMBERS (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10)
NOT ROMAN NUMERALS (I, II, III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX,X) NB no concept of zero in roman numerals.

100 years old – 86 years old = 14 ADD 3 YEARS FOR ISSAC’S WEANING

THAT WOULD MAKE ISHMAEL 17 YEARS OLD IN GENESIS 21:14-21
BUT IT IS A DESCRIPTION OF AN INFANT.

Carefully read several times the above passage and then tell me the mental picture you get between the mother child interactions what is the age of the child. If the mental picture is that of a 17 year old child being carried on the shoulder of his mother, being physically placed in the bush, crying like a baby, mother having to give him water to drink, than the Islamic viewpoint is null and void. Why is there no verbal communications between mother and (17 YEAR OLD) child?

GENESIS: 21:14 - 21
So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, along with the (17 YEAR OLD) child, and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-Sheba. When the water in the skin was gone, she cast the (17 YEAR OLD) child under one of the bushes. Then she went, and sat down over against him a good way off, about the distance of a bowshot; for she said, “Let me not look upon the death of the (17 YEAR OLD) child.” And as she sat over against him, the (17 YEAR OLD) child lifted up his voice and wept. And God heard the voice of the (17 YEAR OLD) lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven, and said to her, “What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not; for God has heard the voice of the (17 YEAR OLD) lad where he is. Arise, lift up the (17 YEAR OLD) lad, and hold him fast with your hand; for I will make him a great nation.” Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the skin with water, and gave the (17 YEAR OLD) lad a drink. And God was with the (17 YEAR OLD) lad, and he grew up; he lived in the wilderness, and became an expert with the bow. He lived in the wilderness of Paran; and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt.


The age of Ishmael at this stage is crucial to the Abrahamic faiths. If he is 17 than the JUDEO/CHRISTIAN point of view about the Abrahamic covenant is correct. This has devastating theological consequences of unimaginable proportions.

This makes the conflict between Ishmael and Isaac and there descendants a work of fiction. I would strongly suggest it is clear cut case of racial discrimination and nothing to do with god almighty. The scribes have deliberately tried to make Isaac the only son and legitimate heir to the throne of Abraham??

Please can you rationally explain this anomaly?

I have asked many persons including my nephews and nieces - unbiased minds with no religious backgrounds but with reasonable command of the English language about this passage and they all agree that the child in the passage is an infant.

AS THE DESCRIPTION OF ISHMAEL IN GENESIS 21:14-21 IS THAT OF AN INFANT IT CAN BE ASSUMED SOMEONE HAS MOVED THIS PASSAGE FROM AN EARLIER PART OF SCRIPTURE!!! AND HAVE GOT THERE KNICKERS IN A TWIST.
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  #2  
Old 20th April 2007, 03:42 AM
RJP2006 RJP2006 is offline
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Default Think about it

in relation to the Teaching Series on Scripture. The author of this excerpt accuses current Scripture regarding Abraham, Issac and Ishmael of being incorrect and wrong....
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  #3  
Old 20th April 2007, 04:28 AM
Hope
 
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AI2001 wrote:

Quote:

I was confronted with this a few months ago, how does one respond to such arguments?

Quote:
GENESIS: 21:14 - 21
So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, along with the (17 YEAR OLD) child, and sent her away.

For starters, I'd probably bring attention to the fact that their translation is not the only accepted one out there. Douay-Rheims, for instance, is translated this way:


Quote:

Genesis 21
14 So Abraham rose up in the morning, and taking bread and a bottle of water, put it upon her shoulder, and delivered the boy, and sent her away.

The only detail in these passages that makes it absolutely clear that Ishmael has to be a small child is where he is on his mother's shoulder. But note, the Douay translation does not have him sitting on his mother's shoulder. Without this detail, there is nothing else that would lead me to the conclusion that Ishmael has to be small in stature, like a baby or toddler.

Ishmael naturally would have been devestated by his expulsion, so I imagine that his mother catered to him most tenderly in his darkest hour. The other interactions between Hagar and Ishmael, such as casting him under a tree and giving him water to drink could easily take place between a mother and an older child. The fact that she arose and took him up by the hand seems to indicate that Ishmael was walking on his own two feet and therefore wasn't an infant like the article is claiming. The fact that he cried doesn't prove that he was an infant either. Wouldn't you cry too if your father cast you away from and sent you to face almost certain death in a desert?

At this point, I might mention that no one knows for certain how the ancients measured time. They probably didn't use the same system we do, so the chronological ages given in the bible might not perfectly align with modern chronological age. I don't think the concept of "zero" even existed yet. So a seventeen year old in Abraham's day, might be a few years younger than what a seventeen year old is in our day. But such a theory is controversial, so on second thought, you'll probably be better off not going there.

Last edited by Hope : 20th April 2007 at 05:43 AM.
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  #4  
Old 20th April 2007, 01:21 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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I'm sure that there is a simple explanation, but I have no interest in even looking for it. Any argument which begins with the premise that the Bible is not infallible is necessarily implying that the Bible is not the Word of God. The argument is therefore faulty and should be ignoried.
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