CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group  

Go Back   CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group > Catholicism > Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 21st July 2007, 03:46 PM
CRW
 
Posts: n/a
Default Emhc

Ron,

I have a question concerning woman serving as EMHC and I believe you are not in approval of such based on scriptures.

1 Timothy 3 – 15: “If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

The Church, with Sola Scripture, is the authority, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. If the oral traditions and the teaching of the Church are not coupled with the inspired words of the bible, I believe that it is incomplete.

If our Church norms approve of Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist, pass down the norms for the faithful to follow, how can one say that it is wrong? Does not the Church have the authority to institute norms for the distribution of the Eucharist?

Cecil
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 21st July 2007, 04:03 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,592
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CRW View Post
The Church, with Sola Scripture, is the authority, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. If the oral traditions and the teaching of the Church are not coupled with the inspired words of the bible, I believe that it is incomplete.

If our Church norms approve of Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist, pass down the norms for the faithful to follow, how can one say that it is wrong? Does not the Church have the authority to institute norms for the distribution of the Eucharist?

But, if I am delayed, you should know the manner in which it is necessary to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and the foundation of truth.

Sacred Infallible Tradition and Sacred Infallible Scripture constitute the one Sacred Deposit of Faith. The Magisterium can only teach truths found explicitly or implicitly in the Deposit of Faith.

A rule or norm permitting women emhCs or lectors is not an example of Tradition. It is not the case that the Church has always had women emhCs or women lectors; this is a recent innovation, therefore, it is not Tradition.

You might want to read my article on Tradition; it is not oral traditions:
http://www.catholicplanet.com/TSM/index.htm

Rules and norms fall under the temporal authority of the Church which is fallible. The Sacred Magisterium is infallible, the Ordinary Magisterium is non-infallible (limited possibility of error), but the temporal authority is fallible.

Therefore, it is possible for the Church to make a mistake in its temporal decisions. This is not controversial. No one teaches that the Church is infallible in its temporal decisions, neither conservative nor liberal theologians.

Also, nothing taught by Tradition can ever contradict Scripture, and vice versa, because both are infallible. Therefore, one cannot nullify a teaching of Scripture on roles for women, with a recent temporal decision of the Church.

Are these distinctions clear?

It may be considered an open question as to what exactly a woman's role should be in the Church, the family, and society, but it is only an open question to some extent.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 21st July 2007, 05:04 PM
CRW
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I clearly see your point as stated, but do not understand, in my limited intelligence why the Pope would approve in various rubrics the norms allowing this practice if it is against Holy Scripture.

Cecil
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 21st July 2007, 05:23 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,592
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CRW View Post
I clearly see your point as stated, but do not understand, in my limited intelligence why the Pope would approve in various rubrics the norms allowing this practice if it is against Holy Scripture.

Cecil

Perhaps I am mistaken.

Or perhaps he permits this role to women due to the hardness of our hearts (cf. Mt 19:8 ).

Or perhaps the influence of modern society is so pervasive, that even the temporal decisions of the Church have been adversely affected.

Also, you should realize that all the Bishops are Apostles in their own right; they are not merely assistants to the Pope. So even if the Pope preferred a particular temporal decision, he cannot order all the other Bishops to give up their roles as Apostles and merely act according to his decisions.

My opinion is that the Church will (relatively soon) clarify the teaching of Divine Revelation on men's and women's roles, and it will not be in accord with the teachings of secular society.




Ron
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 21st July 2007, 05:50 PM
CRW
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thank you Ron for your honest replies. I am struggling with my wife being an EMHC. As a husband, I have an obligation, I believe, to advise her on her proper role. I know of no one who takes this honor to serve our Lord more then she does and lives up to the worthiness of the service.

Cecil
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 23rd July 2007, 04:55 AM
VeiledProphetess
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I have also wondered about this. I wonder about appearing holier than the Pope, or at least than my fellow parishioners.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 23rd July 2007, 11:25 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,592
Default

The Church has not said that women must be lectors and emhCs, nor does Canon Law specify that women ought to be lectors and emhCs. It is merely permitted, nor required or encouraged.

So why are most lectors and most emhCs women?

I think it is due to the influence of modern secular society. There is a false idea of equality which makes no distinction in roles between men and women. This would seem to encourage men and women to have the same roles. But the result is that women are so strongly encouraged to take roles of leadership that they dominate in those roles. And if a role is mostly held by women, few object. But if the same role is mostly held by men, it is seen as a serious problem.

It is not the Pope who is requiring or encouraging women to take most roles as lectors and emhCs in the Church. Nor is it in any way contrary to Church teaching or discipline for a woman to step down from such a role.

As for Tradition: throughout most of Church history, women have not had such roles as lectors and emhCs.

As for Scripture: women are clearly taught not to take the same roles as men.

[1 Corinthians]
{14:33} And God is not of dissension, but of peace, just as I also teach in all the Churches of the saints.
{14:34} Women should be silent in the Churches. For it is not permitted for them to speak; but instead, they should be subordinate, as the law also says.
{14:35} And if they want to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the Church.
{14:36} So now, did the Word of God proceed from you? Or was it sent to you alone?
{14:37} If anyone seems to be a prophet or a spiritual person, he should understand these things which I am writing to you, that these things are the commandments of the Lord.
{14:38} If anyone does not recognize these things, he should not be recognized.

So why does the Holy See permit (not require or encourage) women to take such roles? As I said in my previous post, because our hearts are so hard that we live so much by the teachings of modern society and so little by the teachings of Tradition and Scripture.


Ron
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 23rd July 2007, 05:00 PM
CRW
 
Posts: n/a
Default Emhc

“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 15, 18-19.

Our Pope today, in such a way, follows the Tradition of the original twelve as having the authority and power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven. If our Pope approves of norms, is he not acting under the authority of Christ to bind or loose temporal or even scripture rubrics written in the original text?

"Also, nothing taught by Tradition can ever contradict Scripture, and vice versa, because both are infallible. Therefore, one cannot nullify a teaching of Scripture on roles for women, with a recent temporal decision of the Church." partial quote Ron post 21 July 2007, same subject. My question: Is the Pope's authority to bind or loose considered a contradiction of scriptures if the Pope loose the scripture requirements. If yes, this authority as Vicar of Christ on earth to bind of loose is truely degraded to some extend to an administrator role. If no, our Pope has the authority, through the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, to bind or loose scripture requirements.

I pray I am not totally misreading our Pope's authority granted by Christ to rule and guide His Church.


Cecil
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 23rd July 2007, 05:45 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,592
Default

The Pope, and even all the bishops gathered with the Pope, do not have the ability to add or subtract or change any of the teachings of Tradition and Scripture.

The temporal authority of the Pope and the bishops pertains to judgments, practical decisions, rules, norms, etc. But it is not the case that, if a Pope makes a judgment on a temporal matter, that it becomes correct by his decree. The temporal authority of the Pope is fallible, not infallible, not non-infallible, but fallible.

Now Sacred infallible Scripture says:
Women should be silent in the Churches. For it is not permitted for them to speak; but instead, they should be subordinate, as the law also says.
Since this is a teaching of Sacred Scripture, it cannot be mistaken, nor can it be nullified by the Magisterium. For the Magisterium is the servant of Tradition and Scripture, not its master.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 23rd July 2007, 07:54 PM
CRW
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Interesting document - Immensae Caritatis – On Facilitating Reception of Communion in Certain Circumstances.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWIMCAR.HTM

In order, then, that the faithful who are in the state of grace and rightly and devoutly wish to share in the sacred meal may not be deprived of this sacramental aid and solace, Pope Paul VI has decided it opportune to authorize special ministers who will be empowered to give communion to themselves and others of the faithful, under the exact and specified conditions here listed.

IV. The fit person referred to in nos. I and II will be designated according to the order of this listing (which may be changed at the prudent discretion of the local Ordinary): reader, major seminarian, man religious, woman religious, catechist, one of the faithful—a man or a woman.

Being Catholic is so hard, especially when our Church leaders pronounce questionable norms. I know this one will require many prayers.

Cecil
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.