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  #11  
Old 23rd July 2007, 09:15 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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That document applies to extraordinary situations, and it appropriately gives some preference to men over women in fulfilling these roles.

But the current problem in the U.S. and elsewhere is the use of laywomen, and their preference over men, for roles that are not extraordinary. At times laywomen are prefered even over ordained men.

For example, I was at a daily Mass where 7 priests concelebrated. But when it came time to read the Scriptures, one laywoman got up and did all of the readings herself, except for the Gospel. And though it was a daily Mass with only about 100 persons present (on Thanksgiving day), numerous emhCs, mostly women, got up to distribute Communion.

I've been to numerous Sunday Masses where there were plenty of men serving as 'ministers of hospitality' (ushers), but all of the lectors and nearly all the emhCs were women. The men are simply not asked to take those roles, and are not welcome in those roles.

There is no document or norm anywhere which would justify this practice.

Yes, the temporal authority of the Church permits women in certain roles in certain situations. But this limited permission for extraordinary situations has been badly misused. It is treated as if it were a norm for women to predominate in every role not strictly limited to the ordained.

In my opinion, Scripture teaches that there must be clear distinctions between the roles of men and women in church, and that women must have roles that are subordinate.

I'm sure that God will not permit this kind of error to continue for much longer.

This is similar to the problem in which Vatican II was used as an excuse for a long litany of erroneous beliefs and practices, which are really nowhere to be found in the documents of that Council.


Ron
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  #12  
Old 23rd July 2007, 10:30 PM
CRW
 
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Ron,

I do agree with you 100 percent concerning the abuse of EMHC. As with any norm the Church establishes, widespread liberalization and abuse follows. EMHC will not go forward, in the Church I attend, if sufficient deacons or priest are available for the distribution of the Body and Blood. The New Order of the Mass was written to specifically allow lay readers (deliberate participation of the lay); except for the gospel.

I was really trying to understand the authority of the Church, especially the Pope, to establish norms that are in direct contradiction with scriptures. If scriptures are infallible, then the Pope has the authority to bind or loose on earth and Christ will honor that in heaven. Christ gave Peter the keys of much authority to govern our Church; did man apply restrictions that Christ did not imply? I think I am aware of the Church answer no, the Councils or Pope, under specific circumstances cannot error.

The best example I can provide: The simple wearing of head covering by woman. Scriptures specify it, but it took Canon Law to enforce and then a simple deletion from Canon Law for the norm to change. I personally feel the Pope has more authority to govern then the Church approves today.

Cecil
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  #13  
Old 24th July 2007, 12:05 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRW View Post
I was really trying to understand the authority of the Church, especially the Pope, to establish norms that are in direct contradiction with scriptures. If scriptures are infallible, then the Pope has the authority to bind or loose on earth and Christ will honor that in heaven. Christ gave Peter the keys of much authority to govern our Church; did man apply restrictions that Christ did not imply? I think I am aware of the Church answer no, the Councils or Pope, under specific circumstances cannot error.

The best example I can provide: The simple wearing of head covering by woman. Scriptures specify it, but it took Canon Law to enforce and then a simple deletion from Canon Law for the norm to change. I personally feel the Pope has more authority to govern then the Church approves today.

Cecil

The Pope should not establish norms which contradict Scripture, because Scripture is infallible and norms are not. The Pope's authority to bind and loose has limits, because Scripture is the Word of God, it is a written representation of Christ the Word. And Christ is greater than the Pope. So the authority to bind and loosen does not include the ability to contradict, nullify, change, add to, or subtract from, any teachings of Scripture.

It does include the ability to make limited changes to the Sacraments, for example, determining the wording for a valid consecration. But it does not include the ability to allow women to be ordained as priests or bishops. Recall that the Pope decided that it is an infallible teaching that the Church lacks the authority to ordain women priests. Notice that the Church, though it holds the keys that bind and loose on earth and in heaven, still has limits to its authority.

I think that the Church has the authority to permit some married men to become priests, but that the Church lacks the authority to require all priests to be married men. The Church has the authority to make and to change the rules under which a man is accepted into the preisthood, but only within certain limits.

Setting aside the question of women's roles at Mass, this is an important basic concept that has many applications. The keys to bind and loose only open and close certain doors. There are other doors that are closed by God (such as women priests) and other doors that are opened by God (such as the validity of even an illicit Sacrament). And the Church is unable to change such things.

It is not always clear what the limits of the authority of the Church are. I was surprised, not that women cannot be priests, but that the reasons is the Church lacks the authority. It is not yet entirely clear what the Church will decide about women's roles, but the Church lacks the authority to give any answer which is in direct contraction to Scripture.


Ron
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  #14  
Old 24th July 2007, 12:55 AM
CRW
 
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When the Churches become one, I wonder what changes will occur, especially concerning the Sacrament of Reconciliation and divorce? I think it is a given that married ministers, except woman, that convert will be ordained to assist in the shortage. It can be said that our Church has already deviated from scriptures concerning divorce and the annulment process.

Cecil
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  #15  
Old 24th July 2007, 09:37 AM
Love The Fisherman
 
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Hi CRW,
I have a problem with this one! We assume that in the Catholic (Roman) Church that the Holy Spirit 'Calls' young men to the priesthood. This cannot be said of the various Protestant Churches. Because why would the Holy Spirit 'Call' someone to Ministry in a Church with invalid sacraments? So I cannot see the rational in assuming that if the various christian Churches were to unite under the Roman Pontif that their ministers would be automatically accepted into the Priesthood. I cannot see it happening like that.
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  #16  
Old 24th July 2007, 04:49 PM
js1975 js1975 is offline
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I agree.

I used to sometimes listen to some of the non-denominational preachers on TV. After a few minutes I hear one of two things. First, they make mistakes and are not inline with Catholic or even Christian teachings. Two, their focus is not on piety, but on the world.

When the churches unite, these issues will need to be corrected. I think by that time the piety will be much better, but they still have to learn the faith. I cannot imagine anything less than say 1-2 years of schooling to be ordained with the holy orders and be capable of delivering mass.
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2cor 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, most beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God.
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  #17  
Old 24th July 2007, 05:18 PM
CRW
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Love The Fisherman View Post
Hi CRW,
I have a problem with this one! We assume that in the Catholic (Roman) Church that the Holy Spirit 'Calls' young men to the priesthood. This cannot be said of the various Protestant Churches. Because why would the Holy Spirit 'Call' someone to Ministry in a Church with invalid sacraments? So I cannot see the rational in assuming that if the various Christian Churches were to unite under the Roman Pontif that their ministers would be automatically accepted into the Priesthood. I cannot see it happening like that.

First, I did not mean to imply that all ministers would automatically be ordained as priest. The conversion of these men would qualify them to the priesthood, with the exception of norms established today. Many may not desire or meet certain (newly established) qualifications to be ordained to the priesthood (homosexuality/marriage/Freemason). Also, I am not sure that one can be so bold to say that Rev. Billy Graham was not called by the Holy Spirit to his ministry; our Lord works in mysterious ways. Would you not consider Scott Hahn qualified as a convert for the priesthood if he was currently single? I also believe that for the Church to maintain the infrastructure after consolidation, qualification criteria changes for ordination would be required. If is extremely difficult today for our priest to fulfill their duties; both administrated and spiritual. One must remember the criteria for election to Pope – a Catholic man; ordination to the priesthood or his precedent Christian beliefs is not a requirement.

Cecil
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  #18  
Old 24th July 2007, 05:47 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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There are going to be very many problems in the Church after unification.
It is certainly good for the Protestant Churches to repent and unite with the Catholic Church, but it is going to be a difficult transition.
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  #19  
Old 24th July 2007, 05:58 PM
CRW
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
There are going to be very many problems in the Church after unification.
It is certainly good for the Protestant Churches to repent and unite with the Catholic Church, but it is going to be a difficult transition.

Ron,

I agree, but look at the problems we have today. It may be one of the reasons for cradle Catholics to come together. I saw on TV that the US had reached the 2 billion mark paid out for priest abuse. The USCCB cannot prepare a single uniform document concerning excommunication of those that support abortion. "MASS" confusion still exists with the ordinary Mass and now many think the Latin Mass will correct the problems.

Lord Have Mercy,

Cecil
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  #20  
Old 25th July 2007, 08:43 AM
Love The Fisherman
 
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Hi Cecil,
Yes. I agree that Scott Hand would be a wonderful priest. And many more like him! But on the other hand I certainly would not have picked St. Peter to be the First Pope! My point was that if the Holy Spirit gives the 'Call' we shouldnt equate the Priesthood of the Catholic (Roman) Church with Ministry in the various Protestant Churches. I see no parallel here. A protestant Minister has no more right to expect to be ordained than anybody else. I, personally, try not to focus on the priest abuse issue in the Church today. I see this as a work of the Holy Spirit who is purifying the Church continually. Peace to your Heart.
Tomás
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