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  #11  
Old 27th October 2006, 12:01 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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[Mark]
{14:21} And indeed, the Son of man goes, just as it has been written of him. But woe to that man by whom the Son of man will be betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born.”
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  #12  
Old 28th October 2006, 12:01 AM
Padraig
 
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No, I'm sorry Ron.

I have been concerned about this and prayed a lot.

This is not Catholic teaching.

The original thought of the Saducees about our Lord was that he was damned for His contravention of the Law.

This was a presumption which the Church itself traditionally acknowledges in its teaching of the scripture of:
Matt. 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."



The decision, precisely that Judas is damned goes against traditional Catholic thought and is presumptionist because of this, it is exacetly what they said to the Christ.

Christ is damned.

Christ was not damned.

Christ was Crucified on presumption, precicisly the sin of fundamentalist Islam.

No soul can judge another.

If judge not less you be judged, does not mean this, it means nothing..

Jesus was right.

Judge not means what it says

This is pesumption

Since I was a child have heard this preached, you; are teaching something different

I am unhappy about this

Last edited by Padraig : 28th October 2006 at 12:38 AM.
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  #13  
Old 28th October 2006, 02:55 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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It is not judging, it is an interpretation of Scripture.
Now this interpretation is speculative, it is not doctrine or dogma
(as far as I know).

Judas died committing the mortal sin of suicide,
despite having known Christ personally.

Then there is the comment about Judas made by Christ which
says it would be better for him if he had never been born.

And also Christ said to Pilate that Judas had a greater guilt that
even Pilate, who condemned an innocent man and the author of life
to death.

And finally Blessed A.C. Emmerich was shown a vision of Jesus visiting
Hell and talking to Judas in Hell.

This is not the same as the commandment not to judge, because it
is an interpretation of Divine Revelation.

If even Judas goes to Heaven, then the path is not narrow, as Christ taught.
If even Judas goes to Heaven, then one does not need to become like a little child to enter the kingdom.
If even Judas goes to Heaven, the one's righteousness does not need to exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees.

The above is the argument that he went to Hell.
What would be the argument that he went elsewhere?




Ron
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  #14  
Old 28th October 2006, 07:42 AM
Padraig
 
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Well you're a theologian and I'm not, Ron, so I respect that and acknowledge you're coming from a better, more learned and well read position than me in this. Nevertheless I still disagree with you.

You say:

Judas died committing the mortal sin of suicide,
despite having known Christ personally.


In fact, historically this was the position of the Church in the past. "Suicides' were refused the Requiem Mass and blessings and prayers at the grave side. They were buried at the crossroads so folks could walk over them to show their contempt. Or else buried in the middle of nowhere in an unChurched grave so no one would pray for them, they, it being supposed they were burning brightly in a screaming hell.

But the Church changed its position in the last century or so for a number of reasons.

Firstly I suppose for pastoral reasons of charity. If a lady knocked at the Presbytery door and says, 'My 15 years old son hung himself, Father coulld we arrange the funeral, please?' It would not be felicitous to inform her than her son had commited a mortal sin and was in hell and praying for him would be a waste of time and burying him in a Catholic cemetry would be a waste of space.

You say Judas 'committed a mortal sin'. But how can you say this? How can anyone? Even if he did so, how do you know he didn't repent ,as Padre Pio suggests sometimes happens, folks can at the very last instant?

Last edited by Padraig : 28th October 2006 at 07:46 AM.
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  #15  
Old 28th October 2006, 01:11 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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I certainly agree with you that many persons who commit suicide can go to Heaven (by way of Purgatory). This occurs generally because of reduced culpability. The sin is objectively mortal, but may not be an actual mortal sin. We live in a world where there is much confusion about wrong and right. So some persons might commit suicide without realizing how seriously wrong it is.

But Judas knew Christ and was an Apostle, so it is much less likely that he had sufficient reduced culpability. Also, his sin was not merely suicide, but despairing of the mercy of God, even on the eve of the Passion which is the greatest work of that mercy.

Also, Christ said that the Apostles would sit on 12 thrones to judge the 12 tribes. But Matthias replaced Judas as Scripture says, so that Judas could go to his own place:

{1:23} And they appointed two: Joseph, who was called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
{1:24} And praying, they said: "May you, O Lord, who knows the heart of everyone, reveal which one of these two you have chosen,
{1:25} to take a place in this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas prevaricated, so that he might go to his own place."
{1:26} And they cast lots about them, and the lot fell over Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven Apostles.

Now I believe that Judas repented of betraying Christ. So the position that you take, that he might have repented of other sins, or perhaps he had reduced culpability, is a tenable position. But the majority of the evidence from Divine Revelation seems to point in the other direction.



Ron
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  #16  
Old 28th October 2006, 03:11 PM
Padraig
 
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Yes, Ron, I don't think our two positions are that far apart, really. However 'highly likely' and 'almost certain' are not certanties.

I find it interesting that Judas is mentioned now and again in accounts of excorcisms as one of the demons possessing souls, including a very famous one in your own country in the 1920's in a mid western State, I'll have to look it up, I'm sure it must be on the web.

I remember once reading a book on gangsters one time and seeing a photgraph of the dead body of Albert Anastasia lying were he had been shot in a barbers chair ; gruesome! Alberto was a founding member, maybe the founding member of 'Murder Incorporated' and was a professional hitman who was involved in possibly hundereds of people being murdered. I think one of the characters in the Mario Puzo book, 'The Godfather' was modelled on him. Anyway I felt sorry for him and payed for him but got the strongest feeling, overwhelming in answer, 'You can't pray for him, Padraig he's in hell'. Which give me quite a shock,as you could guess.

Last edited by Padraig : 28th October 2006 at 04:29 PM.
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  #17  
Old 28th October 2006, 05:12 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Speaking about theology in general, there are a lot of ideas and conclusions that are uncertain. We cannot push these ideas and conclusion aside, merely because they are not certain. Theology mostly deals with ideas and conclusions that are not certain.


Ron
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  #18  
Old 29th October 2006, 08:53 PM
BIDUMATTW BIDUMATTW is offline
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Faith, HOPE, and Charity are the three theological virtues given to all mankind. Presuming anyone to hell, Judas, Hitler or anyone else seems to me an offense against HOPE. An opinion held after gleaning evidence in scripture, and other sources, should always yield, in the end, to the HOPE of God's mercy.
The theology and dogma of the Immaculate Conception, has Our Blessed Mother protected from original sin in advance of her birth, across time, or perhaps outside of time is better stated, because of the necessity of her role in our salvation. To my thinking this dogma lends HOPE for the soul of Judas. Judas' betrayal of our Lord was a neccessary step in our salvation. In God's Providence it happened as it did, and perhaps under the mantle of HOPE there was provision for this single soul.
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  #19  
Old 30th October 2006, 01:40 AM
Joey Joey is offline
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I couldn't count the number of times that my students have asked if Judas went to Hell. Without blinking, my reply always is, "Only God knows." And it is the very gleam of HOPE in the eyes of these little eight year olds that make me wonder about the whole issue too. But of course, it is not for us to know until we have passed on. I know how Padraig feels when you feel so sorry for someone's plight in life that you are inclined to pray for them. Some of my little charges have even felt badly for the evil one himself, and THAT I certainly do squelch as those prayers would be all for naught. This Judas question, though, has been perplexing to me all of my life....sort of haunting, excuse the term. There are times that I feel certain that he was condemned, as Ron is inclined to think. But as Be It Done states, one cannot completely throw out the HOPE in Divine Mercy. May we all be worthy recipients.
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  #20  
Old 30th October 2006, 01:54 AM
Hope
 
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This seems like Moral Relativism gone amok.

The third of the Spiritual Works of Mercy is the call for us to admonish the sinner. This means that we are not afraid to challenge evil and admonish it. Jesus said something like, if your brother sins against you that you are supposed to tell him his fault privately. If he listens to you, you have won over him over.

This is considered a Spiritual Work of Mercy. We are supposed to make God present in the world. Part of this includes identifying sin and correcting it. This does not mean pretending sin does not exist. It means that we recognize sin and recognize that unrepentant mortal sin results in eternal punishment.

I know we are talking about a sinner, Judas, who we cannot admonish because he is already dead. But I bring this up because I think people might be confusing judging someone's soul with judging someone's actions. We are called to use our God-given sense of reason to identify sin and to tell the sinner that he is sinning--we are not supposed to ignore it and say, "well it's not my place to judge", and let him continue sinning.

When I read what Ron wrote, I don't think that he is judging the state of Judas's soul so much as making an inference from what he has studied in Scripture. We can see that Judas was a sinner--he betrayed Jesus, then committed suicide. These are clearly sinful acts--we can agree on this, I think. We can also agree that there is a Hell, and people go there. I hope we are not opposed to that idea--we all agree that there are people in hell . . . at least I think we do. So isn't it possible Judas is among the damned?

Although we cannot be certain of Judas' eternal fate, we can make an inference. In my other post I said that the Big indicator for me was that Jesus said it was better that Judas had never been born. It is hard for me to interpret that statement any way other than Judas did not make it to heaven.

I'm not saying that Judas deserved Hell or making a judgment on the state of his soul at death. What I am doing is reading between the lines and finding the clues, which seem to indicate that Hell is the lot of Judas.

I am not placing myself as the judge of Judas' soul. But I am making a judgment about the clues that I find in scripture, which seem to say that Judas did not make it to Heaven.

Yet, I'd be the first to tell you that I don't know where he is for sure, but if my life depended on knowing his fate, I'd guess Hell.

That's all.

Last edited by Hope : 30th October 2006 at 01:57 AM.
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