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  #1  
Old 30th November 2006, 12:44 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Limbo

There are four possible versions of Limbo:

1. as a fringe or upper level of Purgatory, often called the Limbo of the Fathers
This is implied by Church teaching, but has not been formally defined, so it is subject to the development of doctrine

2. as a fringe or upper level of Hell
This has been taught by the Magisterium (but not infallibly as far as I know).
This is where persons go who have died in a culpable state of original sin, but without other mortal sins.

3. as a third separate place of perfect natural happiness
This idea was condemned by Pope Pius VI in Auctorem Fidei, n. 26.

4. as a fringe of Heaven, such that the souls there would be in Heaven, but without the Beatific Vision
This idea is heretical since it contradicts an infallible papal teaching of Pope Benedict XII, On the Beatific Vision of God.

Prenatals and infants who die without a formal Baptism, in my theological opinion, go to Heaven by way of an upper level of Purgatory. But let me add that I don't see any valid theological argument, speculative or otherwise, which can place prenatals or young children prior to the age of reason anywhere other than Heaven. Even if there is no explicit statement from the Magisterium saying that they go to Heaven, the Faith implicitly, yet with utter clarity, teaches that no other final destination is compatible with the infinite Mercy of God.


Ron Conte
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  #2  
Old 30th November 2006, 03:21 PM
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What is considered the age of reason?
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  #3  
Old 30th November 2006, 07:29 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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traditionally, the age of reason was considered to be seven.

However, in modern society, with kids entering school at young ages, including preschool and kindergarden, and with numerous educational books and toys, the age of reason appears to have moved to a younger age, about 4 to 7 years. This varies from one individual to another.

But a child who dies beyond the age of reason would still generally obtain a mystical Baptism, at least in the last moment of life, by the suffering of the loss of a normal lifespan, united with the suffering of Christ on the Cross. Some children beyond the age of reason, however, might obtain a mystical Baptism sooner than the last moment of life, through a Baptism of desire (a subcategory of mystical Baptism), by good deeds done in full cooperation with the salvific grace of God, and by patient suffering.


Ron Conte
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Old 1st December 2006, 12:26 AM
Joan
 
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"Let the little children come unto Me," and "for the Kingdom of Heaven is made up of such as these."
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  #5  
Old 1st December 2006, 02:41 AM
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I am not trying to put too fine a point on this discussion, but I am truly curious.

I know a few children of a friend's family, and they do not believe in baptism until adulthood. I don't think it is the child's fault, but when does he or shee become culpable? For instance, if he dies at 14 or so without baptism, what then?

I am not looking for definitive answers, just thought out opinions.

Thanks
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  #6  
Old 1st December 2006, 04:06 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Most likely, if someone dies in their teenage years without a formal Baptism, they would go to Heaven by way of Purgatory. Death at that age is still a great suffering, because they have lost all of their adult years, so a mystical baptism can be obtained at least in the last moment of life. It is also possible that a mystical baptism could be obtained prior to the last moment of life, through some good deed, or sincere prayer, or patient suffering, or other act wherein the mind and heart cooperate fully with God's grace so as to obtain salvific grace.

However, it is possible, after the age of reason, for a child or teen to commit an actual mortal sin, and to refuse to repent even through the last moment of a life that ends in childhood or the teenage years. Such a very sinful child or teen would go to Hell. But this is unusual. Even a troubled teen who commits many objective mortal sins may well still be in a state of grace, not having committed an actual mortal sin. Also, sincere repentance is possible even if an actual mortal sin has been committed.


Ron
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  #7  
Old 1st December 2006, 02:56 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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An additional point:

blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only unforgiveable sin. Therefore, prenatals and infants who die in the womb must go to Heaven. They cannot have committed the sin of blasphemy against the Spirit.


Ron
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  #8  
Old 1st December 2006, 07:16 PM
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Can you give some examples of Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?
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  #9  
Old 2nd December 2006, 01:14 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is nothing other than final impenitance: the failure to repent from actual mortal sin through the last moment of life. Anyone who has not committed an actual mortal sin, including the mortal sin of omission of not having obtained sanctifying grace in life, goes to Heaven.



Ron
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  #10  
Old 22nd December 2006, 03:35 PM
llazcano13
 
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Default Limbo & Maria Simma

Hello Ron, some months ago I read in the catholic news that a theological comission in the Vatican had declared that the Limbo was now officially non existing, that it was an old belief but never officially declared as valid by the Church.

However, if you have read the book "Get us out of here" (interview of Nicky Eltz to Maria Simma), there is a chapter about the Limbo. Maria Simma said that the souls had revealed her about the true existance of the Limbo.

I think you opinion, as you say in your private revelation section, is that the souls messages to Maria Simma are true and thrustworthy.

So I think we have a contradiction here between Maria Simma and traditional catholic belief in Limbo, versus the latest theological opinion issued by the Vatican comission.

What do you think?
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