CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group  

Go Back   CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group > Catholicism > Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old 22nd December 2006, 07:16 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,592
Default

Theological commissions have no ability at all to exercise the Magisterium, not even the ordinary non-infallible Magisterium.

I am unaware of any decision by that commission on Limbo. Do not trust press reports regarding doctrine.

There are several different versions of the idea of Limbo, see my articles on the subject. Some versions are true and others are false.
http://www.catholicplanet.com/RCC/baptism-limbo.htm

I don't know what Maria Simma said about limbo; can you give any details on that?


Ron
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 27th December 2006, 08:53 PM
llazcano13
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thank you Ron, I will try to copy the chapter about Limbo on the book of Maria Simma revelations.

If you donīt have it, I recommend you strongly to get a copy here
http://getusoutofhere.com/


By the way, here are some Zenit news about the theological declarations on the Limbo:

Code: ZE05120205
Date: 2005-12-02
Theological Commission Studying Limbo
Will Publish Document on Question
http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=81031

Code: ZE04100703
Date: 2004-10-07
Children Who Die Without Baptism: A Nagging Question
Pope Asks Theological Commission to Look Into the Matter
http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=60047

Code: ZE06100322
Date: 2006-10-03
Draft Text on Unbaptized Children Being Analyzed
International Theological Commission in Session
http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=95896
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 27th December 2006, 11:26 PM
Joey Joey is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 587
Default Maria Simma on Limbo

Ron,
Here's the chapter on Limbo from Maria Simma's book that llazcano13 was talking about. I belong to an online prayer group called "Friends of the Holy Souls" and this book came on each day, a chapter at a time. It was quite fascinating!


This is an extract from the book "Get Us Out Of Here!" by the late Maria Simma speaking with Nicky Eltz
(Authorized by the late Maria Simma) and blessed by the late Fr. Slavko Barbaric IFM (+) Medjugorje, July 1, 1993.

LIMBO
What happens to still-born or aborted children, where do they go?

The Poor Souls tell me that they do not go to Heaven, but because they were innocent they do not, of course, go to Purgatory. They go to a place that is between. One can call it Limbo, but sometimes we call it 'Children's Heaven'. The word Limbo comes from LIMBUS that is the space between the print on a page and the edge of the paper itself. The souls of babies there do not know that there is something better. They do not know that they are not in Heaven, and it is our responsibility to lift them up into Heaven. And that, of course, does not take a lot because they never had a chance to sin. We can do that with a 'Baptism for the Unborn' or a Requiem Mass. Stillborn and aborted children should also be given a name and accepted into the family. This enters them into the Book of Life.
I knew a nurse working in a hospital in Vienna who always baptized the stillborn and aborted babies in that hospital. she did so twice a day, in the morning for those who had died that night and in the evening for those who had died during the day. While dying herself she called out, "Oh, here come all the children!" The Priest at her bedside answered, "Why sure, you baptized so many, and here they are to help you now." And these children then assisted her on her way.

Do babies in Limbo also appear or come very close to their relatives?

Yes, they do. Especially their siblings are often conscious of another child being close by, even if they know nothing of the stillbirth or abortion.

I have heard that highly sensitive children have often seen their stillborn or aborted siblings, but that when they do, they see them growing older as time passes at the same rate as the living ones. Does this not contradict your saying that the souls always appear to you the same age as when they died?

No, I do not think it does because God always knows us the best and shows us things the way we can understand them the best. So when children show themselves as getting older, as you just described it, it only means that God wishes to make it as clear as possible to the very sensitive and loving child who exactly is visiting it. Children pray very much easily and freely than adults do and are more readily believed by their parents than others are, so this experience will certainly bring quick results if the loving parents jump in and take care of matters as they should, on behalf of all their children. Jesus Himself said, "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them." (26) And this also includes all stillbirths and abortions.

How do you feel about abortion?

Abortion is the greatest war and greatest horror of all time. Satan has been permitted by this so crippled society to kill the innocent by the millions just like another swarm of flies. The reparation for this will be enormous! I do not wish to say more than that.

If a woman then has admitted that her abortion was a great sin, what must she do so that she can be sure Jesus has erased everything? Can you answer this, or should I change the subject?

No, that's all right.
The woman must immediately confess it to a Priest and truly ask Jesus for forgiveness. Then the woman must do deep and heartfelt penance for this in a way that truly brings peace back to her. Then the child must be given a name in order for it to find acceptance and love in the family that it so definitely belongs to and for it to be entered into the Book of Life. She must ask forgiveness from that child. And finally she ought to have it baptized and give it a Mass as I explained earlier. If all this is done and done with a humble and penitent heart, then it will be enough.

After all this is done, do any effects of it still remain?

Besides the never forgetting it, the Poor Souls have told me that she will see in Heaven the spot where her child should have been after having lived a full life, bu that spot will then be empty. But because Heaven is Heaven there will be no pain there of any sort concerning this.

Will all abortions be punished in the same way?

No, because it does often happen that youngsters today are forced by parents or society to have it done, and in those cases the far greater responsibility will be carried by the adults who forced them to have it done. The media and government Laws that lower the conscience of society, and the doctors who make profits and who lie or conceal the well- known negative consequences that come upon the mothers later on will be punished severely. Also the medical and cosmetic industries that use fetus by-products to develop products will find out the immensity of their sins. We must pay a lot for them all.

Many women in the USA, the rest of the West, as well as in the East I suppose, say that they may do as they choose with their bodies and that which is within it. How do you answer them?

How dare they do to a helpless child something which they themselves would never permit another to do to them while they as adults are hardly as helpless to protect themselves?! How quick they are to run to court when a branch from a neighbor's tree breaks off and damages some of their property, but when they take a life, it remains their right, and no one else may dare to try to intervene for that life! These are very poor people who need our prayers every day to be freed from this selfishness, arrogance and confusion.

End of chapter 19
__________________
"Closer to You bid me, that with Your saints I may be praising Your name, forever and ever."

Joey
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 27th December 2006, 11:55 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,592
Default

Notice that in Maria's explanation of limbo, it is only a temporary place, and afterward they are lifted up into Heaven. This is just as I have explained it in my article.


Ron
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 5th February 2007, 10:16 PM
CRW
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by llazcano13 View Post
Hello Ron, some months ago I read in the catholic news that a theological comission in the Vatican had declared that the Limbo was now officially non existing, that it was an old belief but never officially declared as valid by the Church.

However, if you have read the book "Get us out of here" (interview of Nicky Eltz to Maria Simma), there is a chapter about the Limbo. Maria Simma said that the souls had revealed her about the true existance of the Limbo.

I think you opinion, as you say in your private revelation section, is that the souls messages to Maria Simma are true and thrustworthy.

So I think we have a contradiction here between Maria Simma and traditional catholic belief in Limbo, versus the latest theological opinion issued by the Vatican comission.

What do you think?

I do not usually open an old thread but I am reading The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ, an acount of the Passion by Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich.

She states: "I heard Jesus order several of the souls in Limbo to re-enter the bodies in which they once dwelt, in order that the sight might fill sinners with a salutary terror, and that these souls might render a solemn testimony to his divinity." Chapter XLVI, The Earthquake,-Apparitions of the Dead in Jerusalem.

Just another example of the state of Limbo. On October 3, 2004, Pope John Paul II beatified her but not her writings.

Last edited by CRW : 5th February 2007 at 10:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 28th February 2007, 04:02 PM
Rob Rob is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sicily, Italy
Posts: 966
Default

"He Descended into Hell. On the Third Day, He Rose Again from the Dead"

Jesus desceneded to free people that didn't deserve hell. This is a kind of Limbo. Ron, you state that the limbo of the fathers in in purgatory. How does this statement from the Creed fit with your article on Limbo? Can you explain?
What si here meant by hell?

God bless

Roberto
__________________
For to me, to live is Christ; and to die is gain (Phil 1:21)
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 28th February 2007, 06:51 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,592
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
"He Descended into Hell. On the Third Day, He Rose Again from the Dead"

Jesus desceneded to free people that didn't deserve hell. This is a kind of Limbo. Ron, you state that the limbo of the fathers in in purgatory. How does this statement from the Creed fit with your article on Limbo? Can you explain?
What si here meant by hell?

Jesus did not free anyone from Hell. Anyone who goes to Hell is condemned forever.

Jesus went to the upper level of Purgatory called the limbo of the fathers to free those who died prior to the Crucifixion, for no one can enter Heaven except through Christ. However, since Purgatory is outside the ordinary timeline, the fathers did not have to literally wait for thousands of years.

Jesus also literally descended to Hell, because Hell is a place of God's Justice and Mercy, it is not the devil's domain. Jesus brought a new order to Hell, making it explicit to all the condemned souls there how much they had rejected by implicitly rejecting Him. Hell is a merciful place because all the souls there are punished far less than they deserve.


Ron
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 28th February 2007, 11:30 PM
Rob Rob is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sicily, Italy
Posts: 966
Default

Ron,

Tradition states that there is a kind of limbo in Hell. You do also explain that according to your speculative article on limbo, there is one in hell reserved for those who are in a state of mortal sin and have failed to acknowledge implicitly the Saviour. This kind of limbo is there forever. No one can escape from hell or this kind of limbo (if it does exist).
Now we do know that in Hell there are different kinds of torments. Apparently everyone gets what he deserves. So althought everyone suffers, each suffers in a different way and magnitude. If that is the case, the limbo of hell could be excluded because those who are in the limbo will suffer much less than others but differently.
What I am trying to say is that those who are in mortal sin and refuse the saviour implicitly because they never knew about Jesus will suffer in Hell but much less than others. This would eliminate the need for a limbo in Hell.
Is this view licit? Is it somehow heretical? If that is incorrect, I presume that there is a substantial differende between Hell and the Limbo in hell, but how could it if they are situated in the same place?

God bless

Roberto
__________________
For to me, to live is Christ; and to die is gain (Phil 1:21)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 1st March 2007, 01:37 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,592
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Ron,

Tradition states that there is a kind of limbo in Hell. You do also explain that according to your speculative article on limbo, there is one in hell reserved for those who are in a state of mortal sin and have failed to acknowledge implicitly the Saviour. This kind of limbo is there forever. No one can escape from hell or this kind of limbo (if it does exist).
Now we do know that in Hell there are different kinds of torments. Apparently everyone gets what he deserves. So althought everyone suffers, each suffers in a different way and magnitude. If that is the case, the limbo of hell could be excluded because those who are in the limbo will suffer much less than others but differently.
What I am trying to say is that those who are in mortal sin and refuse the saviour implicitly because they never knew about Jesus will suffer in Hell but much less than others. This would eliminate the need for a limbo in Hell.
Is this view licit? Is it somehow heretical? If that is incorrect, I presume that there is a substantial differende between Hell and the Limbo in hell, but how could it if they are situated in the same place?

God bless

Roberto

I can't understand what you are saying.

Limbo means 'fringe'. There is a fringe to Purgatory, and a fringe to Hell.
The Limbo of Hell is for adults who died without ever finding sanctifying grace; this is a mortal sin of omission. The rest of Hell is for those who had sanctifying grace, and then lost it, and also never repented; this sin is worse, so they suffer more. However, even within the rest of Hell, each person's sufferings are unique to the offenses and virtues of their lives.


Ron
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 4th March 2007, 04:53 PM
Joan
 
Posts: n/a
Default

two questions:

1) there are seven mortal sins, where in the Catholic catechism are the types of mortal sins of omission identified?
2) it would be unjust to leave a stillborn or aborted infant out of the Lamb's Book of Life, therefore it cannot be correct teaching; the God who calls us by name, the Lamb who will give to the Blessed a stone upon which a secret name is written special to the Blessed child of Christ--that God will surely write their names in the Book of Life, he knows the names of those whom we label "Unknown" or "John Doe"

3) finally, there are depths and mysteries to the Universe and the Heavenly realm that are reserved to the Holy Trinity, and it sometimes bothers me the impression that is given that things are so very cut and dried. The idea that unless the victim of abortion or stillbirth is adopted and baptised, they're not in the Book of Life--I resist this thought, in fact, is sounds kind of like the Mormon heresy.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.