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  #11  
Old 10th April 2016, 02:16 AM
4unborn 4unborn is offline
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
He has the authority to decide what is and is not doctrine. And he can change discipline. Who may receive Communion is part doctrine and part discipline.

He does not have the authority to decide what is and is not doctrine. Divorced and remarried cannot receive Communion due to the part that is doctrine.
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  #12  
Old 10th April 2016, 10:55 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Doctrine is objectively true. But it is the Pope's role to teach doctrine, and to correct us. You say the Pope doesn't have the role to decide what is doctrine, but you are making that decision. Someone must decide whether a question is doctrine or discipline. The Pope is chosen by God to lead us.
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  #13  
Old 10th April 2016, 02:12 PM
4unborn 4unborn is offline
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Doctrine is objectively true. But it is the Pope's role to teach doctrine, and to correct us. You say the Pope doesn't have the role to decide what is doctrine, but you are making that decision. Someone must decide whether a question is doctrine or discipline. The Pope is chosen by God to lead us.

The Pope is chosen by the free will of men, not necessarily God's choice. There have been bad Popes before.
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  #14  
Old 11th April 2016, 03:52 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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4unborn,

Pope Francis is not a heretic. Pope Francis is not teaching against any Dogma. No Pope whatsoever, no matter how sinful he may be cannot err on dogmas because he is The Rock of Jesus' Church, instituted by God Himself and God can no err, because He is God and God can not lie (which is worst) because He is God.

Yes, a Pope can err till a certain extent on non-infallible teachings or in fallible teachings, but not on Dogmas for the above mentioned reasons, an even so, these errors will not lead the faithful away from the path of salvation. On the contrary, a heresy, WILL lead any person to perdition.

Actually, it is a Dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church that the Pope has the “Gift of Non-failing Faith.”

First Vatican Council: “This charism of truth and a faith that never fails was, therefore, conferred by God on Peter and his successors in his chair; so that they may administer their high office for the salvation of all”

[Luke]
{22:31} And the Lord said: “Simon, Simon! Behold, Satan has asked for you, so that he may sift you like wheat.
{22:32} But I have prayed for you, so that your faith may not fail, and so that you, once converted, may confirm your brothers.”

IF the Pope’s faith fails, and instead of confirming (in the faith) to Jesus’ sheep, the Pope leads his sheep away from the path of salvation, then it is indeed Jesus the One Who has failed, therefore, this is IMPOSSIBLE to happen.

Anyone who accuses the Pope of heresy is indeed, deep inside, accusing Jesus of having failed, of not keeping his promises, or even worst, of a liar; or at best, that person is simply an ignorant of the Gospel.

Pay close attention to what Peter, our first Pope, infallible taught:

[2 Peter]
{3:16} just as he also spoke in all of his epistles about these things. In these, there are certain things which are difficult to understand, which the unlearned and the unsteady distort, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
{3:17} But since you, brothers, know these things beforehand, be cautious, lest by being drawn into the error of the foolish, you may fall away from your own steadfastness.
{3:18} Yet truly, increase in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory, both now and in the day of eternity. Amen.

This is what basically the Protestant do, they distort Scripture, but any Catholic can also do, distort the teachings of the Magisterium. The Magisterium, composed by the Pope and the Bishops in communion with the Pope, has been instituted by Christ to correctly interpret what Scripture says and teach us.

God will never abandon His Church, God is NOT careless of what is being taught in His Church, God is watching and ever active in His Church.

[Matthew]
{28:19} Therefore, go forth and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
{28:20} teaching them to observe all that I have ever commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, even to the consummation of the age.”

God gave Peter and the Apostles the authority to teach all nations, and He also said that He will be with His Church always. So is not true the Holy Spirit is not active in His Church Teachings, otherwise it would be God’s failing, which, again, cannot happen.

God assists Peter in his administration:

See what happened to Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11), this couple tried to fool the Church but the Spirit revealed Peter that they were lying.

So, God is ever working in His Church, that we are led to the Path of Salvation and not permitting Peter and his successors to teach heresy for our own sake, God does this for us!

That being said, regarding the dogma of the married who commits adultery cannot receive the Eucharist (because they are in state of actual mortal sin), the Pope has NOT taught anything contrary to this dogma. Anyone who is in state of grace can receive the Eucharist, this has not changed. The Pope and the Bishops in communion with the Pope are here to teach us about development of doctrine because yes, doctrine does not change, but we do develop in its understanding.

For example, regarding the dogma of “Outside the Church there is no Salvation” St. John Paul II taught us that this teaching cannot be simplified to the meaning that anyone who is not a formal member of the Catholic Church goes to Hell, NO. He taught us that anyone who is in state of grace (not in state of actual mortal sin), is an informal member of the Church, and therefore, can be saved because Jesus died for the salvation of all! And there are many factors why a person may not be a formal member of the Catholic Church, and even so, sincerely seeks the truth and loves God and his neighbor, or for people who love their neighbor, which is an implicit love of God (even without even knowing about it).

This is a problem that many Pharisee at the time of Jesus also had, they simplified God teachings and exalted so many set of rules, but ignored what is most important, everything that comes from the heart of persons (Mark 7), that's why they hated Jesus. Jesus ended with the discipline of stoning people to death when caught in adultery, the discipline ended, but the fact that this act is mortal sin has not ended, this remains forever. Jesus ended a disciplinary rule, but not the dogma that adultery is a mortal sin. Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery but He also told her "Go and sin no more", meaning that this woman had to be really repentant of what she did.

Pope Francis is even teaching us that we cannot simplify dogmas or teachings in paragraph 305, there are many things that are complex due to a great variety of situations, we cannot teach that our Faith is overly simple as “black or white”, no. The bottom line, anyone who is in a state of grace, can receive the Eucharist. The dogma is not being distorted or changed.

The Pope also told us at the beginning of this new Apostolic Exhortation, Amoris Laetiti, to read it carefully, this implies to meditate on its content. So we should not quickly jump to distorted conclusions.

Grace and peace.
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Last edited by Brother : 11th April 2016 at 04:12 PM.
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  #15  
Old 11th April 2016, 05:34 PM
4unborn 4unborn is offline
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Pope John Paul II made it clear that the divorced and remarried cannot receive Holy Eucharist under any circumstances.
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  #16  
Old 11th April 2016, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4unborn View Post
Pope John Paul II made it clear that the divorced and remarried cannot receive Holy Eucharist under any circumstances.

There is no "divorce" in the Holy Catholic Church. For those who TRULY received the Sacrament of Marriage, can not remarry until the death of one of the spouses. However, those who's marriage ceremony (in the Catholic Church) is concluded to be null (declaration of nullity), this means that the Sacrament didn't truly existed in the first place, then, they can have the Sacrament of Matrimony because their first union wasn't a true Sacrament of marriage. Pope Francis has shortened the disciplinary nullity process.

Just clarifying because you tend to oversimplify Church's teaching.
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  #17  
Old 11th April 2016, 06:31 PM
4unborn 4unborn is offline
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You can see the comments at the following URL:
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news...what-john-pau/


To sum up AL, Chp. 8:

Jesus: “Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to
divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. I say to you,
whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries
another commits adultery.”

Pope Francis: "Not so fast, Jesus! I say to you whoever divorces his wife
and marries another may not in fact be guilty of adultery; it depends on the
circumstances."

Jesus [concerning adultery]: "If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it
out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than
to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna. And if your right hand causes
you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one
of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna."

Pope Francis: "Not so fast, Jesus! It may actually be better to continue in
adultery because refraining from sex with a new partner may lead to
"unfaithfulness" or harm children.

The document does not teach what Pope John Paul II taught. St. John Paul
said under no circumstances can a divorced, remarried person rec. communion.
This pope left it up to the pastors to decide.

In charity, Schonborn is a liar and an apostate. To attribute the hash of AL
in any way to JPII requires a deliberate lie. He knows better.

My shorter Oxford English dictionary defines CASUISTRY as follows;

"The science, art or reasoning of the casuist; that part of Ethics which
resolves cases of conscience, applying the general rules of religion and
morality to particular instances which disclose special circumstances, or
conflicting duties. Often applied to a quibbling or evasive way of dealing
with difficult cases of duty; sophistry."

Sounds familiar to me!

So according to Cardinal Schonborn it is okay for the divorced and remarried
to receive communion provided they have created subsequent obligations! Tell
that to the marines!



This is just to get the follow-up comments!

The touching story of the couple with eight children does not mention
whether or not the divorced and remarried woman did an injustice to her
former ( real ) husband who may have been living in continence all these
years or if he fell into an adulterous relationship out of loneliness. In
most divorces, one of the people involved does not want the divorce. Does
the new document address their predicament?

P.S.
If my neighbor has an article of property, let's say, a car, which he may or
may not take as good care of it as I would, do I have the right to steal it?
What if I take better care of the car than the original owner did? What if I
keep it for several years, does the passage of time make it mine?
What if the original owner never buys another car but is reduced to walking?
Should he rejoice to see me drive his waxed and polished car past him while
he waits for the bus?

In my own parish, we already have a problem with our liberal priest allowing
non-Catholics to receive Communion. He is gonna love this document.

Pope John Paul II made it clear that the divorced and remarried cannot
receive Holy Eucharist under any circumstances.

"He's the Pope and we are Catholic."
.
I must confess, after 20 years of being Catholic, I'm not sure I want to be
anymore.

Questions for the Cardinal:
“All families, whether regular or in difficult situations, are on the way
to perfection..” Can families be on the way to perfection? Or does that
only apply to individuals? What sort of perfection does he see an
‘irregular’ family achieving? Does he see that perfection is possible if
people are committing adultery?
“He tries to show that there’s not, on the one side, the good families,
and on the other side the bad families, but I think it comes very much from
his experience with poor families.”
What have poor families got to do with ‘irregular’ families?
“She was divorced but they are an exemplary family despite the sinful
origins.” Would you say anything similar of people in other sinful
situations? For example, would you say, “She is a prostitute but they are
an exemplary family”? Or, “He has several mistresses but they are an
exemplary family”? Can you divorce the state of the family from the sinful
nature of the relationship between the parents?
“Now they continue to abstain from receiving Communion but have eight
children who are well educated in the faith.” Do you believe that the end
justifies the means?
“First of all let’s take time to read the document…” You mean you
haven’t?
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  #18  
Old 11th April 2016, 07:08 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4unborn View Post
You can see the comments at the following URL:
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news...what-john-pau/

Don't pay attention to the misunderstandings of the unlearned (the comments section of the article you posted), but to the teachings of the Magisterium.

Are you going to pay more attention to the words of someone who says something like:

Quote:
I must confess, after 20 years of being Catholic, I'm not sure I want to be anymore.

Or the Rock appointed by Christ.

It is clear that these people are getting lost by misinterpreting the teachings of St. JP2. They don't even quote his actual words.

Again, heed what the Rock has to say:

[2 Peter]
{3:16} just as he also spoke in all of his epistles about these things. In these, there are certain things which are difficult to understand, which the unlearned and the unsteady distort, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
{3:17} But since you, brothers, know these things beforehand, be cautious, lest by being drawn into the error of the foolish, you may fall away from your own steadfastness.
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  #19  
Old 11th April 2016, 07:11 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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4born,

You are misinterpreting what Pope Francis has said. He did not make those "not so fast" comments, nor say anything tantamount to that.

He did not say that the divorced and remarried may receive Communion. I've read all the relevant parts of the document. There is no such assertion.

I personally prefer a narrower discipline for who may receive, but the Pope has authority over discipline. And if he wishes to allow the Bishops to use their authority to decide matters of discipline, he can do so.

I see no doctrinal errors, only a difference in preference for discipline.
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  #20  
Old 11th April 2016, 07:35 PM
Joey Joey is offline
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4born, I do not know your age, but you are echoing my 38 year old son to a 't'. And sadly, he has taken his beliefs and complaints against the Holy Catholic Church to the extreme of joining SSPX along with his wife and four children. Brother's posts are on point, he explains how easy it can be to lose faith and trust in the papacy, and then comes full circle as to why it is wrong to dismiss it. I will pray for you as I do for my son. And if you have never done the Mary, Undoer of Knots Novena, I recommend it to you.
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