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  #1  
Old 29th July 2013, 02:27 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Pope Francis: orthodox liberal

Pope Francis is a type of Catholic that many conservatives think does not exist: orthodox and yet liberal.

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-says-wont...111041448.html

I can't wait for his first encyclical. The encyclical on faith was written almost entirely by Pope emeritus Benedict. This providentially shows the continuity between these two successive Popes.

When Francis starts publishing papal documents, there will be much controversy. He is orthodox, and so the unfaithful among liberals will be outraged. But he is also liberal, and so the unfaithful among conservatives will also be outrages. Then the great apostasy will begin.

The truths taught by Christ are not always conservative, or moderate, or liberal. It is wrong for Catholics to divide themselves into pseudo-political groups, and then adhere to all the ideas of that group, rather than to the teachings of the Church.
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  #2  
Old 29th July 2013, 03:24 PM
feyfifer feyfifer is offline
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...and here's one of the first of his opinions that conservatives are going to be outraged over....I must admit it stuck in my craw too, when I read this...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23489702
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  #3  
Old 30th July 2013, 07:13 AM
feyfifer feyfifer is offline
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..or maybe not!

http://www.teresatomeo.com/409-long-...the-media.html
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  #4  
Old 31st July 2013, 01:55 AM
daytonafreak daytonafreak is offline
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Originally Posted by feyfifer View Post


Interesting, CCC paragraph 2358

“The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”

Of course, the question is how does a person arrive at this disordered orientation? There must be more to it than just being what some claim is "born that way".
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  #5  
Old 31st July 2013, 11:34 AM
St. Thomas More St. Thomas More is offline
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Default Liberalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Pope Francis is a type of Catholic that many conservatives think does not exist: orthodox and yet liberal.

The truths taught by Christ are not always conservative, or moderate, or liberal. It is wrong for Catholics to divide themselves into pseudo-political groups, and then adhere to all the ideas of that group, rather than to the teachings of the Church.

Ron,

Can you clarify what you mean by "liberal?" You must mean something other than Pope Pius IX meant when he condemned the following:

80. The Roman Pontiff can, and ought to, reconcile himself, and come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilization.- -Allocution "Jamdudum cernimus," March 18, 1861.

in his Syllabus of Errors. Thanks in advance.
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  #6  
Old 31st July 2013, 01:15 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by St. Thomas More View Post
Ron,

Can you clarify what you mean by "liberal?" You must mean something other than Pope Pius IX meant when he condemned the following:

80. The Roman Pontiff can, and ought to, reconcile himself, and come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilization.- -Allocution "Jamdudum cernimus," March 18, 1861.

in his Syllabus of Errors. Thanks in advance.

Notice that the quote you provide also condemns "progress" and "modern civilization", which are not necessarily evil or sinful. What that statement is condemning, then, is not all ideas that might be called liberal, nor all types of progress, nor modern civilization itself. The statement rightly condemns the idea that the Pope, the Church, and the Magisterium should be subordinate to the ideas and prevalent opinions in secular society.

In theology, as well as in politics, the conservative position is not necessarily the correct position before the eyes of God.

Let's consider the teachings of Jesus.

Divorce: The Sadducees believed that a husband could divorce his wife for any reason, even if she merely burns the dinner. The Pharisees believed that a husband could divorce his wife for any serious reason. Jesus taught that there should be no divorce (fornication though is a separate case). Jesus' teaching on this point was very conservative, more so that the most common conservative position of His day.

Death penalty under Mosaic Law: Jesus refused to condemn the woman caught in adultery; His position on the Mosaic death penalty was very liberal, more so that the most liberal of the Sadducees. No more death penalty under Mosaic law.

Today, the position of Pope John Paul II on the death penalty (it is not needed in the present day circumstances) is liberal. The conservative position is to have a death penalty for a range of different crimes.

The correct theological position today is not necessarily the conservative political position. On the question of U.S. immigration, the conservative politicians have a harsh attitude: deny immigrants work, housing, medical care, education, forcing them back across the border. Would Jesus agree? Certainly not.

On the topic of salvation for non-Christians, the conservative theological position is that no one who knows about Christianity is saved unless they convert to Christianity before death. That position is irreconcilable with the teachings of Pope John Paul II on salvation (Redemptoris Missio and All Salvation Comes Through Christ).

Conservative Catholics need to be first and foremost CATHOLIC, accepting the liberal or moderate theological position whenever that is the truth before God. Jesus did not teach conservatism. It is an error to turn the Faith into a pseudo-political party where conservatism decides every question instead of the will of God.
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  #7  
Old 31st July 2013, 02:17 PM
Pontifex Pontifex is offline
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This is a good explanation Ron. Thanks.

I also notice that the syllabus is another flag ultra-conservatives like to wave to condemn anything that is modern because they misread its warnings and as they usually do, they confuse the church's pastoral approach of the 19th century with infallible dogma.
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  #8  
Old 31st July 2013, 03:35 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Church documents contain infallible teachings, non-infallible teachings, and judgments of the prudential order (decisions on practical matters, liturgical form; discipline: rules and rulings rather than teachings).

The assertion that the Church is not subordinate to the changing majority opinions of secular society is a teaching, not a discipline. It was taught by Pope Boniface VIII in Unam Sanctam. The Church has both a spiritual teaching authority and a temporal authority. Moreover, the Church has the authority from God to oversee secular government, judging when society may have gone astray in matters of faith and morals.
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  #9  
Old 31st July 2013, 06:27 PM
Truthseeker Truthseeker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Pope Francis is a type of Catholic that many conservatives think does not exist: orthodox and yet liberal.

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-says-wont...111041448.html

I can't wait for his first encyclical. The encyclical on faith was written almost entirely by Pope emeritus Benedict. This providentially shows the continuity between these two successive Popes.

When Francis starts publishing papal documents, there will be much controversy. He is orthodox, and so the unfaithful among liberals will be outraged. But he is also liberal, and so the unfaithful among conservatives will also be outrages. Then the great apostasy will begin.

The truths taught by Christ are not always conservative, or moderate, or liberal. It is wrong for Catholics to divide themselves into pseudo-political groups, and then adhere to all the ideas of that group, rather than to the teachings of the Church.

Pope Francis on giving the Sacraments to remarried divorcees:
“This is an ongoing issue. I think this is the time to show mercy. Times have changed and the Church faces many problems, partly because of the negative testimonies of certain priests. Clericalism has caused a lot of wounds and these wounds need to be healed with mercy. The Church is a mother and in the Church we need to be merciful towards everyone. We shouldn’t just wait for the wounded to come to us, we need to go out and search for them. I think the time for mercy has come as John Paul II predicted by introducing the Feast of Divine Mercy. Divorced people can take communion, it is those who have divorced and remarried that cannot. Here I must add that the orthodox follow the theology of economics and allow second marriages. When the commission of eight cardinals meets at the beginning of October we will discuss how to proceed. The Church is taking a very close look at pastoral initiatives for marriage. My predecessor in Buenos Aires, Cardinal Quarracino always used to say: “I consider half of today’s marriages to be invalid because people get married without realising it means forever. They do it out of social convenience, etc...” The issue of invalidity needs to be looked into as well.”

Ron here it seems that Pope Francis is even considering the possibility of allowing second marriages on the theology of economics in the same way that the Orthodox Church does. What is exactly the theology of economics ? And would this not be contrary to all we have learnt until now. Me for example I would feel very confused. This is not a matter of being conservative or liberal but of following God's will. Till now I really really like this Pope but this quote has confused me.
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  #10  
Old 31st July 2013, 06:32 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
Here I must add that the orthodox follow the theology of economics and allow second marriages.

Ron here it seems that Pope Francis is even considering the possibility of allowing second marriages on the theology of economics in the same way that the Orthodox Church does. What is exactly the theology of economics ? And would this not be contrary to all we have learnt until now. Me for example I would feel very confused. This is not a matter of being conservative or liberal but of following God's will. Till now I really really like this Pope but this quote has confused me.

I don't know what that would mean, perhaps it is a misquote. No, the Church will never permit divorce and remarriage; it is against infallible doctrine. The conditions under which an annulment is granted can be changed, but only a marriage determined to be always invalid can be annulled.

Be careful not to get your theology and your beliefs from mass media claims about comments made by the Pope. Even when a comment is correctly reported, in context, it is not a magisterial teaching.
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