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  #1  
Old 20th June 2008, 02:46 AM
js1975 js1975 is offline
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Default Matthew 1:25

I am sat down to begin reading the bible, the book of Matthew. I came to the following passage, in the New American Bible:

Quote:
23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel," which means "God is with us."
24 When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took his wife into his home.
25 He had no relations with her until she bore a son, 12 and he named him Jesus.

Footnote 12 [25] Until she bore a son: the evangelist is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus. The Greek word translated "until" does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus' birth, nor does it exclude it.

Ron, your version states:

Quote:
{1:25} And he knew her not, yet she bore her son, the firstborn. And he called his name JESUS.

When reading the Catholic Version, NAB, it is implying that Joseph and Mary had sexual relations after the birth of Jesus. I believe this is implied because of the word choice, which is until. Ron, your version seems much more consistent by stating that he knew her not yet she bore her son. The USCCB very clearly twisted around the translation and is misleading. One is led to believe that Mary was not a virgin. They even pointed out that the greek translation of the word until doesn't rule out that they had marital relations. Shouldn't this be changed?

thoughts?
-jay
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2cor 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, most beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God.
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Old 20th June 2008, 03:24 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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The word 'until' used in the NAB is a more literal translation. It does not imply anything about what happened after that point in time. The passage is asserting the virgin conception of Christ.

My translation is a somewhat looser rendering of the word, taking into account Catholic teaching on Mary. It is not at all unusual for a verse to be rendered in a slightly less literal manner as this. I don't know why other translations do not so the same. They take many hard to justify liberties elsewhere.
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Old 20th June 2008, 03:30 AM
js1975 js1975 is offline
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Thanks, I guess I sometimes have a hard time with the choice of words. I would think that in some cases the lack of clarity in explanation can only cause injury through doubt to people having a difficult time with the faith. Perhaps I am taking it a little too far though...

thanks!!
-jay
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  #4  
Old 20th June 2008, 01:39 PM
tobinatorstark
 
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Different Bibles and can lead up to different conlusion to a reader
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  #5  
Old 7th September 2008, 07:29 AM
Justin Angel Justin Angel is offline
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Cool Matthew 1, 25 : Eos

He stayed there until the death of Herod, that what the Lord had said through the prophet might be fulfilled: "Out of Egypt I called my son."
Matthew 2, 15


When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.
Hosea 11, 1


Matthew isn't concerned with the time after Herod's death at which time Mary and Joseph will no longer have to stay in Egypt. The evangelist is strictly concerned with the time before Herod's death, when Mary and Joseph were compelled to flee to Egypt with the infant Jesus and stay there until the king's demise so that the prophecy is fulfilled. Matthew is emphasizing to his fellow Jews that Jesus is truly the Messiah as foretold by the prophets.

He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and named him Jesus.
Matthew 1, 25


As in the second chapter of his gospel, with Joseph as the subject, Matthew is purely concerned with the period of time before an event - the virgin birth of Jesus - to stress the fulfillment of the prophecy:

Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall call him Emmanuel.
Isaiah 7, 14


Note the parallelism of structure between Matthew and Isaiah:

"had no relations" - "the virgin"
"bore a son" - "bear a son"
"named him Jesus" - "call him Emmanuel"


Matthew is declaring to the Jews in Palestine that Isaiah's prophesy is fulfilled in the person Jesus, who is truly the Messiah and the Son of the living God (Emmanuel: God with us). He is not the offspring of Joseph and Mary, but born of the Virgin Mary.

Hence, Matthew is assuring us Mary and Joseph stayed in Egypt until the death of Herod in fulfillment of the prophecy; Mary and Joseph had no relations before the birth of Jesus in fulfillment of the prophecy of the virgin birth: nothing more than that.

"And behold, I am with you always until the end of time."
Matthew 28, 20


In this verse too Matthew is strictly concerned with the period of time preceding an expected event: the second coming of Christ at the end of the age. Again, there is no need for him to necessarily imply a change of a state of affairs. His concern is not with what comes after. If it were so here, then the evangelist would be implying that our Lord will no longer be with us after the end of this age. With regard to prophesies, Matthew always uses the conjunction "until" (eos) with reference to the period of time before the expected event.

Pax vobiscum
J.A.

Last edited by Justin Angel : 7th September 2008 at 07:40 AM. Reason: parenthesis
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  #6  
Old 7th September 2008, 01:11 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Here is another example of 'until' not indicating an end to whatever is being described:

[Psalm 109]
{109:1} A Psalm of David. The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”

{111:8} His heart has been confirmed. He will not be disturbed until he looks down on his enemies.

{122:2} Behold, just as the eyes of servants are on the hands of their masters, just as the eyes of the handmaid are on the hands of her mistress, just so are our eyes upon the Lord, our God, until he may be merciful to us.

{129:6} From the morning watch, even until night, let Israel hope in the Lord.
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