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  #11  
Old 23rd March 2009, 04:38 AM
js1975 js1975 is offline
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Ron,

I am hoping you can help clarify the last sentence of this Papal Bull (UNAM SANCTAM)

Quote:
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

My question revolves around:
1. What is meant by, "It is absolutely necessary for salvation"
(Salvation of mankind? Meaning that the Pope was put in place by Jesus and is required?)
2. Every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff
(That the Pope is responsible for leading the flock on Earth?)

Thanks Ron!
-jay
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  #12  
Old 23rd March 2009, 11:48 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Papal Infallibility in Unam Sanctum

Pope Boniface VIII issued a Papal Bull, in A.D. 1302, called Unam Sanctum. This document defends the spiritual authority of the Church. The last statement in the document is an example of the use of Papal Infallibility prior to its formal definition at Vatican I:

“Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” [70]

This statement was issued by the Pope himself, so it meets the first criterion for a statement under the first charism of Papal Infallibility. The statement is contained in a Papal Bull and uses the expression “we declare, we proclaim, we define,” which is very similar to the “We declare, pronounce, and define…” of Ineffabilis Deus. This type of expression indicates that the Pope is speaking ex cathedra, and so the second criterion is met. The third criterion is met by the same expression. In particular, the “we define” part of the expression indicates a final decision on doctrine. The fourth criterion is met because anything “absolutely necessary for salvation” must necessarily be part of the Sacred Deposit of Faith, whose aim is to effect our salvation. The Sacred Deposit of Faith cannot lack anything which is “absolutely necessary for salvation.” Therefore, this papal statement certainly presents a teaching on the subject of faith or morals.

The fifth criterion is met implicitly. The Pope does not explicitly state that all must believe. However, since this teaching is a doctrine of faith concerning what is “absolutely necessary for salvation,” there is a clear and necessary implication that all must believe.

Since all five criteria are met, this teaching is an infallible teaching of the Holy Catholic Church. Therefore, it is the infallible teaching of the Sacred Deposit of Faith that the role of the Roman Pontiff is an essential part of God's plan for the salvation for all. In other words, the Church, and the human race as a whole, cannot do just as well without a Pope. The Pope's role is necessary and essential to God's plan for our salvation.

This infallible teaching does not say that only those who believe in the authority of the Pope can be saved. The statement does not use the phrase 'belief in…is absolutely necessary for salvation.' The teaching does not say that only those individuals who are willingly subject to the authority of the Roman Pontiff will be saved. Therefore, non-Catholics can be saved, including persons who adhere to other religions or to no religion. The Pope was not saying that non-Catholics cannot be saved.

Similarly, we could say that Baptism and the Eucharist and Confession are a necessary part of God's plan for our salvation. Some persons get into Heaven without these things, but these things are essential nonetheless. Again, some people are saved even though they do not believe in God. But belief in God is certainly a necessary part of God's plan for salvation.

from my article:
http://www.catholicplanet.com/TSM/three-charisms.htm
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  #13  
Old 23rd March 2009, 01:21 PM
js1975 js1975 is offline
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great info, thank you!
-jay
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2cor 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, most beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God.
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  #14  
Old 26th March 2009, 01:41 PM
ExCelciuS ExCelciuS is offline
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Ron, What is the meaning of being saved? Does saved means someone that can enter heaven? Can someone who reject Jesus Christ as God but live in grace(such loving neighbor and God he believes) still can be saved, example: Islam, Buddha, etc people?

Quote:
[John 14:1-12]
{14:1} “Do not let your heart be troubled. You believe in God. Believe in me also.
{14:2} In my Father’s house, there are many dwelling places. If there were not, I would have told you. For I go to prepare a place for you.
{14:3} And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will return again, and then I will take you to myself, so that where I am, you also may be.
{14:4} And you know where I am going. And you know the way.”
{14:5} Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
{14:6} Jesus said to him: “I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.
{14:7} If you had known me, certainly you would also have known my Father. And from now on, you shall know him, and you have seen him.”
{14:8} Philip said to him, “Lord, reveal the Father to us, and it is enough for us.”
{14:9} Jesus said to him: “Have I been with you for so long, and you have not known me? Philip, whoever sees me, also sees the Father. How can you say, ‘Reveal the Father to us?’
{14:10} Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I am speaking to you, I do not speak from myself. But the Father abiding in me, he does these works.
{14:11} Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?
{14:12} Or else, believe because of these same works. Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me shall also do the works that I do. And greater things than these shall he do, for I go to the Father.
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  #15  
Old 26th March 2009, 01:53 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExCelciuS View Post
Ron, What is the meaning of being saved? Does saved means someone that can enter heaven? Can someone who reject Jesus Christ as God but live in grace(such loving neighbor and God he believes) still can be saved, example: Islam, Buddha, etc people?

A person can be saved by knowing Christ and being Baptized, and then by living the Christian faith (and repenting from any serious sins).

A person can also be saved by knowing and loving all the good that Christ has put into the world, especially by loving neighbor, and so receive a Baptism of desire. So non-Christians can also be saved. They receive sanctifying grace (which we receive through Baptism) by means of a Baptism of desire, that is, by loving Christ without knowing him by name, loving him in our neighbor and in the good things of Creation.

For Christ plays in ten thousand places,
lovely in limbs and lovely in eyes, not his,
to the Father, through the features of men's faces.
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  #16  
Old 27th March 2009, 07:18 AM
ExCelciuS ExCelciuS is offline
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Ok, thank for the answer Ron, I feel that way too, it is a little unfair if there is someone outside christian who is good (loving neighbor) and can't be saved isn't it?

Oh and the title of this thread should now there is salvation outside church?
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  #17  
Old 27th March 2009, 12:05 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExCelciuS View Post
Ok, thank for the answer Ron, I feel that way too, it is a little unfair if there is someone outside christian who is good (loving neighbor) and can't be saved isn't it?

Oh and the title of this thread should now there is salvation outside church?

Where the Holy Spirit is, there also is the Church.

The Church is found even among persons who are non-Christian, among any persons who are in a state of grace (such as those who arrived at that state by an implicit desire for Baptism).

So there is no salvation outside the Church, but the Church is much broader than people realize.
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  #18  
Old 27th March 2009, 07:22 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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[1 John 3]
{2:29} If you know that he is just, then know, too, that all who do what is just are born of him.

All who do what is just are born of Christ, and so even non-Christians may have at least a baptism of desire, which gives them sanctifying grace and salvation.
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  #19  
Old 28th March 2009, 03:18 PM
ExCelciuS ExCelciuS is offline
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Right verse, I really like when it come to verse. Thanks Ron.
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  #20  
Old 22nd October 2009, 10:04 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Pope Boniface VIII: "Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to hold that there is One Holy Catholic and truly Apostolic Church. And this we firmly believe and simply confess: outside of Her, there is neither salvation, nor the remission of sins, just as the Bridegroom in the Canticles proclaims: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. One is her mother; elect is she who bore her.' [Canticles 6:8]. And this represents the one mystical body, whose head is Christ, and truly God [is the head] of Christ. [1 Corinthians 11:3] In Her, there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism. [Ephesians 4:5]"

Fourth Lateran Council: "There is indeed one universal church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice."

Pope John Paul II: "Since Christ brings about salvation through his Mystical Body, which is the Church, the way of salvation is connected essentially with the Church. The axiom 'extra ecclesiam nulla salus' - 'outside the Church there is no salvation' - stated by St. Cyprian (Epist. 73, 21; PL 1123 AB), belongs to the Christian tradition. It was included in the Fourth Lateran Council (DS 802), in the Bull 'Unam Sanctam' of Boniface VIII (DS 870) and the Council of Florence (Decretum pro Jacobitis, DS 1351). The axiom means that for those who are not ignorant of the fact that the Church has been established as necessary by God through Jesus Christ, there is an obligation to enter the Church and remain in her in order to attain salvation (cf. LG 14). For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical 'Redemptoris Missio,' salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ's redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. Redemptoris Missio, n. 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded. In order to take effect, saving grace requires acceptance, cooperation, a 'yes' to the divine gift. This acceptance is, at least implicitly, oriented to Christ and the Church. Thus it can also be said that 'sine ecclesia nulla salus' - 'without the Church there is no salvation.' Belonging to the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, however implicitly and indeed mysteriously, is an essential condition for salvation."
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