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  #21  
Old 23rd October 2010, 05:37 PM
Pontifex Pontifex is offline
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A person can be saved by knowing Christ and being Baptized, and then by living the Christian faith (and repenting from any serious sins).

A person can also be saved by knowing and loving all the good that Christ has put into the world, especially by loving neighbor, and so receive a Baptism of desire. So non-Christians can also be saved. They receive sanctifying grace (which we receive through Baptism) by means of a Baptism of desire, that is, by loving Christ without knowing him by name, loving him in our neighbor and in the good things of Creation.

For Christ plays in ten thousand places,
lovely in limbs and lovely in eyes, not his,
to the Father, through the features of men's faces.

Ron,

Do the non-christians who can be saved receive sanctifying grace by means of baptism of desire at the moment of their death only ? Is their implicit desire necessarily a baptism of desire ? I do not understand how sanctifying grace can be implicit. For example, if we look at this passage from Scripture, we see that Nicodemus does not yet receive sanctifying grace (he is not yet reborn).

John
{3:1} Now there was a man among the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews.
{3:2} He went to Jesus at night, and he said to him: “Rabbi, we know that you have arrived as a teacher from God. For no one would be able to accomplish these signs, which you accomplish,
unless God were with him.”
{3:3} Jesus responded and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one has been reborn anew, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.”
{3:4} Nicodemus said to him: “How could a man be born when he is old? Surely, he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be reborn?”
{3:5} Jesus responded: “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one has been reborn by water and the Holy Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.
{3:6} What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
{3:7} You should not be amazed that I said to you: You must be born anew.
{3:8} The Spirit inspires where he wills. And you hear his voice, but you do not know where he comes from, or where he is going. So it is with all who are born of the Spirit.”
{3:9} Nicodemus responded and said to him, “How are these things able to be accomplished?”
{3:10} Jesus responded and said to him: “You are a teacher in Israel, and you are ignorant of these things?
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Last edited by Pontifex : 23rd October 2010 at 05:58 PM.
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  #22  
Old 23rd October 2010, 07:35 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Do the non-christians who can be saved receive sanctifying grace by means of baptism of desire at the moment of their death only ? Is their implicit desire necessarily a baptism of desire ? I do not understand how sanctifying grace can be implicit. For example, if we look at this passage from Scripture, we see that Nicodemus does not yet receive sanctifying grace (he is not yet reborn).

A baptism of desire can be obtained at any time in life, not only just before death.

An explicit baptism of desire is found in persons who desire the Sacrament of Baptism itself. An implicit baptism of desire is obtained by a full cooperation with grace by an interior act of will and intellect; it is an act of true selfless love of God and neighbor that obtains a baptism of desire.

There are three types of Baptism:
http://newadvent.org/summa/4066.htm#article11

1. of water -- the formal Sacrament of Baptism
2. of the Holy Spirit, also called a Baptism of desire
3. of blood, such as some catechumenate martyrs receive

I believe that prenatals, infants, and young children who die at that young age receive a baptism of blood, at least in the last moment of life.

To receive a baptism of desire, a person must understand and desire either Baptism (explicit baptism of desire) or true love of God and neighbor. But the love of God may be also implicit, so that a person might receive an implicit Baptism of desire by love of neighbor, without explicit love of God.

So even an atheist or an agnostic might receive a baptism of desire.
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  #23  
Old 23rd October 2010, 09:45 PM
Pontifex Pontifex is offline
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
A baptism of desire can be obtained at any time in life, not only just before death.

An explicit baptism of desire is found in persons who desire the Sacrament of Baptism itself. An implicit baptism of desire is obtained by a full cooperation with grace by an interior act of will and intellect; it is an act of true selfless love of God and neighbor that obtains a baptism of desire.

There are three types of Baptism:
http://newadvent.org/summa/4066.htm#article11

1. of water -- the formal Sacrament of Baptism
2. of the Holy Spirit, also called a Baptism of desire
3. of blood, such as some catechumenate martyrs receive

I believe that prenatals, infants, and young children who die at that young age receive a baptism of blood, at least in the last moment of life.

To receive a baptism of desire, a person must understand and desire either Baptism (explicit baptism of desire) or true love of God and neighbor. But the love of God may be also implicit, so that a person might receive an implicit Baptism of desire by love of neighbor, without explicit love of God.

So even an atheist or an agnostic might receive a baptism of desire.

Ron, is the full cooperation of grace received sanctifying grace itself ?
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  #24  
Old 23rd October 2010, 09:57 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Ron, is the full cooperation of grace received sanctifying grace itself ?

The act where by the soul is given sanctifying grace is an act of God alone. The initial justification of the soul, whereby the soul is given sanctifying grace, which include the infused theological virtues and the infusion of the cardinal virtues, is an act of operating (not cooperating) grace, i.e. it is an act of prevenient grace.

A person can receive sanctifying grace, without the formal Sacrament of Baptism, by desire. But the desire does not cause the justification. The full cooperation with actual grace needed to obtain a baptism of desire does not cause the baptism. Rather, God is the sole cause of that sanctification. So the desire for Baptism is a preparation, but is not sanctifying grace itself and does not directly cause sanctification.
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  #25  
Old 23rd October 2010, 10:12 PM
Pontifex Pontifex is offline
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
The act where by the soul is given sanctifying grace is an act of God alone. The initial justification of the soul, whereby the soul is given sanctifying grace, which include the infused theological virtues and the infusion of the cardinal virtues, is an act of operating (not cooperating) grace, i.e. it is an act of prevenient grace.

A person can receive sanctifying grace, without the formal Sacrament of Baptism, by desire. But the desire does not cause the justification. The full cooperation with actual grace needed to obtain a baptism of desire does not cause the baptism. Rather, God is the sole cause of that sanctification. So the desire for Baptism is a preparation, but is not sanctifying grace itself and does not directly cause sanctification.


I see, there is a difference between being reborn by grace and the actual preparation towards grace.
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  #26  
Old 23rd October 2010, 10:40 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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I see, there is a difference between being reborn by grace and the actual preparation towards grace.

Yes. An infant can be baptized without any preparation. But an adult should be cooperating with actual graces in order to prepare for formal Baptism. So in order to receive a baptism of desire, he must prepare his soul by a full cooperation with grace. This cooperation need not be perfect, but it must be full.

Consider the type of fullness needed for an actual mortal sin. The cooperation with grace needed for a baptism of desire must be similarly full (even though these two are opposites). The person must have full knowledge and full consent in his cooperation with grace. Of course he might not understand it in these same theological terms, but he must understand what he is choosing and his choice must be fully deliberate.

For example, if a man chooses to save his neighbor's life with substantial risk of losing his own life, he knows that he is choosing to help his neighbor selflessly, and he freely makes that choice in cooperation with grace. This would be an example of an implicit baptism of desire.
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